Is there any proof God exists?

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I can dig that!

Pretty soon, you'll be leg-lifting half a ton!

I wish David could contribute more than condescending insults. Maybe share some real-life insights based upon real life.

I actually saw some decent substance from him in another subforum here.

Thanks Kraftie.. yes i agree.. and only IF the machine WILL allow more weight teetering over the edge at 930LBS i WILL only have 70LBS to go.. and or if there is a 'stronger machine' available in my metro area.. that there is currently not.. but considering i do the 930.. 12 times.. the half a ton thingy.. is already a safe bet.. at least around 8 reps..

It sure beats raising my arms over my head after eating.. and almost passing out.. or doing the same.. with a casual walk around the block.. in my illness days..

54 beats 47 any day of my life.. NOW.. even 'sweet' 16..17 or adult 21....

"It's good to have an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out..."

I have no idea who initiated. But this goes along the same lines as God allowing for things like divorce and slavery. God knows the wickedness of the human heart. God wants us to totally depend on Him and to make that choice on our own. So things like that are allowed in order to make life more livable. The treatment of slaves as described in the OT allows for a system of justice that puts criminals to work rather than incarceration, impractical to a nomadic society, and automatic death or dismemberment for the smallest infraction. And, of course, if someone becomes a servant, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, that person is to be freed within a certain period of time and any unpaid penalties forgiven. Western slavery, while claiming to be modeled on Christian morality, seemed to conveniently overlook this minor detail. It also ignores why OT slavery was instituted in the first place. It was a means of restitution, but secondarily it also recognized that there were those who were especially gifted in servanthood in whatever capacity and would be willing to devote themselves to lifelong service to a master--in a professional capacity no different than maid/janitorial services, catering/restaurants, etc. Having a lifelong contract to someone freed you from having to regularly seek employment and protection any time your term came up.

Divorce predated the Israelites obviously. But, again, the institutionalized dissolution of marriage was tied to the ancient view of women as chattel property and as such gave divorced women certain protections. It's not because God wanted it that way, but rather because God knew it would happen. It served to ease something that was already unfair.

Capital punishment is an extension of lex talionis. While one can put a price on an eye or a hand, there is no price for a life. So justice compels society to take life for a life.

Stoning likely predated the Israelites. If God tells Moses that stoning is acceptable, it's in the context of any number of execution methods that are allowed. As I've said before, it gives everyone who has been hurt by the taking of life to take part in receiving justice as well as delivering justice to the guilty. After all, they are putting someone to death, not performing vivisection. If it were up to me, I can think of any number of worse ways to die. Honestly, though, I read stoning as a baseline, not an absolute. It's all about the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law.

But to answer your question, it's a human invention and if there is an answer for that, you won't find it in the Bible.


Oh, yeah, "Go up, Baldy." I think that was Elisha.

Well, a couple of things, here--what were teenagers doing bullying a known prophet? Did their parents not warn them about mistreating those called by God to do His work? I mean, that's just messed up. It sends a message. Or maybe their parents DID warn them. What did Moses say? Honor your father and mother so that you may live long in the land God gave you. Whether their parents did their job or not, it doesn't matter. They dishonored their families, and God fulfilled the law of Moses by cutting their lives short.

Yes, it's tragic. But it could have been avoided. Never punish God or anyone else for the sins that others commit. Place the blame and responsibility where it belongs.


Agreed, but I don't think the OT paints God as bloodthirsty. It paints people as bloodthirsty. And yes, you do have to take history into account.

But also, you have to keep in mind that "technology" is a human development. If God transcends physical reality, especially as an all-powerful being, there is no need for "technology" as God is plenty self-sufficient. It's only through God we can do anything at all. The trouble is that we have way too many assumptions going on, and perhaps the most significant assumption here is that the perfection of human beings over millennia isn't the best way to get the job done. For all we really know, given the state of fallen creation, how things went really was the best possible way God could have brought about His plan for our world and for us and the realities of the ancient world were necessary for US to learn those important lessons enough to, hopefully, rise above them and not repeat them. What is unfortunate for us, perhaps more for believers than atheists or anti-theists or agnostics, is there are religious fanatics who choose not to be content with that and insist on pulling us back into that world. I don't believe God wants necessarily to reteach all those old lessons, but as it is He holds us responsible to do that when the time comes for it. I just don't see the Western world being very proactive in that regard, so my suggestion is enjoy your technology while you have it.

Good stuff, and if I didn't have too much to do this week, I could stay here for days.

Yeah it was not meant to be nasty. Now best I read the rest of your diatribe so I can refute it.

Ok first up you are viewing slavery through incredibly rose coloured glasses. The only slaves to receive manumission were Israelite's, others received no such freedom and were salves for life as were any children born to them. In fact all the reasoning you give refers to Israelite's only. Slaves of all cultures could be sold as chattel. Even among the Israelite's it was legal for a man to sell his Wife and daughters into slavery for a period of up to 3 three years to clear HIS debts. So you are being somewhat dishonest in presenting it the way you have.

The rest of your statement sounds like a justification for the way ISIS is behaving, they are using laws founded around the same time as the ones you are defending and I dont think you or anyone else would find their behavior less than abominable.

As to you defending the actions of Elisha this sounds very much like the defence put up by a wife beater. "well you honour, we was having an argment and the b***h slapped me, so wot was I gonna do, I had to slap her around to teach her a lesson" "Wasn't my fault she ended up in a coma and now needs that tube to breathe, the b***h brought it on herself"

It is never ok for someone with far greater power to squash and kill someone who has displeased them.

You make a half heated appeal to modernity, and defend gods morality by suggesting that "he does not want to reteach those old lesson's" Sorry but that is a load of bull. We cannot compare subjective morality and accuse others in different times of being amoral by our subjective standards, but we can if that behavior is supposed to be objective and we have let those supposed objective morals in the gutter where they belong.

Yes.. a mind can be a beautiful thing to lose.. on occasion.. but only with a trust for return..

And by that i simply mean meditation.. the trance of free style dance.. or whatever creatively frees one's mind into feeling pro-social emotions and or other sensory feelings in regulation and integration.. yes.. freely.. without annoying little thoughts..

But of course a return to the verbal mind is a requirement for more concrete thinking for rules and order to get by in life.. in an increasingly complex cultural organism of many human minds....working together as is.. for whatever works now...

I agree.

It is also good to be able to read your post. Normally I just scroll past your words to the next post.

Oh dear! Round and round again.

There is absolutely no more "empirical evidence" for any "Big Bang" than there is evidence that CO2 and N2 ever could or did turn themselves into a Man. The "BB" is "made of" exactly the same kind of fanciful conjecture as Darwinism. Mere assumptions made to suit an ideology. That it can be demonstrated that "Black Holes", "Singularities" and so on are physically and mathematically impossible will be of no concern to the ideologists because such conflict automatically renders such evidence as inadmissible, irrelevant or non-existent. Offering the evidence to anyone determined to ignore it or dismiss it out of hand is an exercise in futility.

Proving the necessity of an uncaused First Cause is very basic reasoning and logic... entirely incomprehensible to a mind bogged in its own ideological prejudice.

I actually don't believe there will be a "first cause" or a "last cause."

I believe in Infinity.

Aghogday is Walt Whitman reincarnated!

Me too..innately.. intuitively.. and instinctually i know this too... and i am trying to teach this too.. to Stephen Hawking as well.. but that's likely impossible too.. but with infinity anything is possible too...

Perhaps we all are in A way....

But any way.. with due humility and about two years of free verse poetry underneath my skin.. that's quite a compliment.. and thank you very much..!

I write at least 30 poems today.. in free verse form.. over three thousand words in effort.. over a period of a few hours.. with caps in tow here and there.. as part of an International online poet's club or pub.. as it is referred to as dVerse Poet's Pub.. so i guess my caps finger is tired..

But never the less...

THANK YOU.

To excel at anything requires practice.. practice.. practice.. and more practice.. and my environment for practice can be almost anywhere with both poetry and dance.. and song..as well...

And truly as history shows there haven't been too many innovative Artists.. who have not faced resistance to the change they offer.. along the way...

Science and Art.. is a fabulous MIX TO ME..named Philosophy..AND free verse Poetry.. to me.. as well...

And it is rare that anyone adds Physical Intelligence to that mix.. and that is the significant change i offer.. friend....

As that part driving emotional regulation.. sensory integration.. cognitive executive functioning along with focus and better short term working memory.. is the cure for 19 medical disorders for me and full human being status in real life now...

Most people will GET excited about a REAL LIFE MIRACLE.. and i am nothing new on that point...as history shows.. as well... AND Science driving technology now allows me to provide irrefutable evidence of what it is NOW..

Not true, there is in fact empirical evidence for the Big Bang. I'm quite sure you don't even know what the theory states, which is that at one time the universe was very small. It doesn't say how or why the expansion occurred, since if we go back too far our current understanding of physics breaks down.



God is also impossible. Black holes have been detected, and the Big Bang almost certainly happened, but how exactly we don't know, precisely because the physics breaks down. Physicists would be the first to admit that. That's what makes it so exciting to study, since it's something new.



If God can be acausal, then so can a universe. I'm only using your own logic. The universe could be both eternal and have had a beginning in the big bang. Just like an inch can be divided into an infinite number of mathematical segments while still being a finite distance.

It is not a theory... it is mere conjecture and there is no evidence that such is possible while there is evidence that such is impossible.

No Black Holes have ever been detected and even Stephen Hawking has recently been quoted as saying they can't exist. Your gratuitous assertion that BB almost certainly happened is practically an admission that there is no evidence that it is even possible. I have no doubt that your straw man version of "God" is, by design, impossible.

You are not using any logic at all. Anything changeable must have something to cause the change and an effect cannot be greater than its cause. You are assuming that an imaginary Klein Bottle that has no beginning, no end, no "middle", no inside or outside is the theory of everything that conveniently vanishes all absurdities into the "certainty" of the ideology.