Joined: 21 Aug 2004 Gender: Male Posts: 558 Location: France
04 Jan 2025, 11:44 am
What bugs me is the report that the roar of Joshua's Triumph was heard throughout the land; a guy in his position should have known better than to ride around with illegal silencers!
The following story, involving Abraham, Sarah, and Hagar, in addition to being deeply problematic as far as women are concerned would fit in with my post on slavery in the Bible. The narrative is a hodgepodge of different sources sown together, but I’m not going to get into that in this post. Many Christians think Genesis was written solely by Moses. That’s what I had been taught.
I briefly talk about the passage where God tests Abraham by seeing if he’s obedient enough to sacrifice his son Isaac at His bidding here. Anyway, back when Sarah and Abraham are childless, God promises Abram (later Abraham) an heir at Genesis 15:1-5.
When his wife Sarai (later Sarah) bears him no children and is getting on in years, she makes a disturbing suggestion and engages in other reprehensible behavior in the following passage:
Now Sarai, Abram’s wife, bore him no children. She had an Egyptian slave whose name was Hagar, 2 and Sarai said to Abram, “You see that the Lord has prevented me from bearing children; go in to my slave; it may be that I shall obtain children by her.” And Abram listened to the voice of Sarai. 3 So, after Abram had lived ten years in the land of Canaan, Sarai, Abram’s wife, took Hagar the Egyptian, her slave, and gave her to her husband Abram as a wife. 4 He went in to Hagar, and she conceived, and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked with contempt on her mistress. 5 Then Sarai said to Abram, “May the wrong done to me be on you! I gave my slave to your embrace, and when she saw that she had conceived, she looked on me with contempt. May the Lord judge between you and me!” 6 But Abram said to Sarai, “Your slave is in your power; do to her as you please.” Then Sarai dealt harshly with her, and she ran away from her.
It’s strange that God couldn’t find more pleasant people to be the founders of various faiths. To be perfectly fair, the practice of begetting offspring through slaves was deemed perfectly acceptable in ancient times, but I would expect more from a husband and wife duo who allegedly have God’s favor.
At any rate, an angel approaches Hagar and the following ensues:
The angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit to her.” 10 The angel of the Lord also said to her, “I will so greatly multiply your offspring that they cannot be counted for multitude.” 11 And the angel of the Lord said to her,
“Now you have conceived and shall bear a son; you shall call him Ishmael, for the Lord has given heed to your affliction. 12 He shall be a wild ass of a man, with his hand against everyone, and everyone’s hand against him, and he shall live at odds with all his kin.”
It seems a bit unfair for Hagar. First, she’s raped by Abram because I’m not sure how being given as a sex slave to a master could be consensual. Then she must return after being abused by his wife, and next she learns that her son will have issues.
In Chapter 17, God changes Abram’s name to Abraham and gets all excited about circumcision. Slaves are also to be circumcised, so there’s some God-endorsed sexual abuse. Somehow that never occurred to me until just now. Weird.
Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring. 13 Both the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.
In verses 23-27, there’s a circumcision fest. 99 year old Abraham and his 13 year old son Ishmael are circumcised; his slaves are as well. A fun time was had by all. As an aside, Semitic people likely got the practice of circumcision from the Egyptians:
This image depicting circumcision dates from 2400 BCE.
Quote:
Based on engraved evidence found on walls and evidence from mummies, the rite has been dated to at least as early as 6000 BCE in ancient Egypt. Ancient Egyptian mummies, which have been dated as early as 4000 BCE, show evidence of having undergone the rite.
But Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, whom she had borne to Abraham, playing with her son Isaac. 10 So she said to Abraham, “Cast out this slave woman with her son, for the son of this slave woman shall not inherit along with my son Isaac.” 11 The matter was very distressing to Abraham on account of his son. 12 But God said to Abraham, “Do not be distressed because of the boy and because of your slave woman; whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for it is through Isaac that offspring shall be named for you. As for the son of the slave woman, I will make a nation of him also, because he is your offspring.”
Abraham sends Hagar and his son away the next morning, and they wander in the wilderness:
So Abraham rose early in the morning and took bread and a skin of water and gave it to Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, along with the child, and sent her away. And she departed and wandered about in the wilderness of Beer-sheba.
15 When the water in the skin was gone, she cast the child under one of the bushes. 16 Then she went and sat down opposite him a good way off, about the distance of a bowshot, for she said, “Do not let me look on the death of the child.” And as she sat opposite him, she lifted up her voice and wept. 17 And God heard the voice of the boy, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, “What troubles you, Hagar? Do not be afraid, for God has heard the voice of the boy where he is. 18 Come, lift up the boy and hold him fast with your hand, for I will make a great nation of him.” 19 Then God opened her eyes, and she saw a well of water. She went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.
20 God was with the boy, and he grew up; he lived in the wilderness and became an expert with the bow. 21 He lived in the wilderness of Paran, and his mother got a wife for him from the land of Egypt.
In Chapter 25, Abraham leaves everything he owns to Isaac, and we find out he had sons to concubines:
Abraham gave all he had to Isaac. 6 But to the sons of his concubines Abraham gave gifts, while he was still living, and he sent them away from his son Isaac, eastward to the east country.
Ishmael helps bury his father in verse 9 for some inexplicable reason. Eventually Ishmael dies and the Ishmaelites are said to live towards Egypt or Arabia (perhaps) (verse 18). The subject of location is an interesting one in the context of biblical narratives. Hagar was an Egyptian slave. She finds Ishmael an Egyptian wife, and the tribes may have settled near Egypt.
Ishmaelites appear again in Chapter 37. Joseph’s brothers sell him to Ishmaelite traders who take him to Egypt and sell him to Potiphar.
There are more problematic passages related to women and slavery involving Abram/Abraham and Sarai/Sarah, but I’ll address those in a separate post.
Concerned about his own safety, Abram/Abraham has his wife Sarai/Sarah pretend to be his sister and she is taken by another man twice in the book of Genesis. It doesn’t appear to bother Abraham too much. He receives male and female slaves from the man in both narratives. Here’s the first account:
Now there was a famine in the land. So Abram went down to Egypt to reside there as an alien, for the famine was severe in the land. 11 When he was about to enter Egypt, he said to his wife Sarai, “I know well that you are a woman beautiful in appearance, 12 and when the Egyptians see you, they will say, ‘This is his wife’; then they will kill me, but they will let you live. 13 Say you are my sister, so that it may go well with me because of you and that my life may be spared on your account.” 14 When Abram entered Egypt the Egyptians saw that the woman was very beautiful. 15 When the officials of Pharaoh saw her, they praised her to Pharaoh. And the woman was taken into Pharaoh’s house. 16 And for her sake he dealt well with Abram, and he had sheep, oxen, male donkeys, male and female slaves, female donkeys, and camels.
17 But the Lord afflicted Pharaoh and his house with great plagues because of Sarai, Abram’s wife. 18 So Pharaoh called Abram and said, “What is this you have done to me? Why did you not tell me that she was your wife? 19 Why did you say, ‘She is my sister,’ so that I took her for my wife? Now then, here is your wife, take her, and be gone.” 20 And Pharaoh gave his men orders concerning him, and they set him on the way with his wife and all that he had.
It all seems rather self-serving on Abraham’s part.
At any rate, I think this highlights the view of women at the time and puts in context the account of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 when Lot offers his daughters to the men of the city rather than his male guests. Women were viewed as pawns - good for sex and childbearing but with little worth beyond that.
The next account occurs in Genesis 20. Here also, Abraham claims that Sarah is his sister (and states that she actually is his half-sister in verse 12):
While residing in Gerar as an alien, 2 Abraham said of his wife Sarah, “She is my sister.” And King Abimelech of Gerar sent and took Sarah. 3 But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, “You are about to die because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a married woman.” 4 Now Abimelech had not approached her, so he said, “Lord, will you destroy an innocent people? 5 Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ I did this in the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands.” 6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you did this in the integrity of your heart; furthermore, it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. 7 Now then, return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet, and he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not restore her, know that you shall surely die, you and all that are yours.”
8 So Abimelech rose early in the morning and called all his servants and told them all these things, and the men were very much afraid. 9 Then Abimelech called Abraham and said to him, “What have you done to us? How have I sinned against you, that you have brought such great guilt on me and my kingdom? You have done things to me that ought not to be done.” 10 And Abimelech said to Abraham, “What were you thinking, that you did this thing?” 11 Abraham said, “I did it because I thought, Surely there is no fear of God in this place, and they will kill me because of my wife. 12 Besides, she is indeed my sister, the daughter of my father but not the daughter of my mother, and she became my wife. 13 And when God caused me to wander from my father’s house, I said to her, ‘This is the kindness you must do me: at every place to which we come, say of me, He is my brother.’” 14 Then Abimelech took sheep and oxen and male and female slaves and gave them to Abraham and restored his wife Sarah to him. 15 Abimelech said, “My land is before you; settle where it pleases you.” 16 To Sarah he said, “Look, I have given your brother a thousand pieces of silver; it is your exoneration before all who are with you; you are completely vindicated.” 17 Then Abraham prayed to God, and God healed Abimelech and also healed his wife and female slaves so that they bore children. 18 For the Lord had closed fast all the wombs of the house of Abimelech because of Sarah, Abraham’s wife.
The narratives are written by different sources according to scholars. The account in chapter 12 is from an older source - the J source. Chapter 20 is from the E source.
Quote:
[S]ource critics argue that the two stories come from different sources or documents. These sources were either drawing from some common legend/motif about the patriarchs, or one source copied the other and adjusted the story to meet its own needs. Since chapter 20 uses the name E-lohim and chapter 12 the name YHWH, the former is usually assigned to the E source and the latter to the J source.
Other textual clues marking Chapter 20 as part of the E source are:
- The use of E-lohim for God’s name. - God speaking in a dream (dreams are a standard feature of E). - God speaking to Abimelech, a “gentile” (E also contains the Balaam story). - The use of the concept “fear of God”, which generally appears in E or D [Deuteronomist] texts.
The account in Genesis 20 is more sophisticated. Perhaps the writer didn’t like the idea of Abraham lying, so he came up with the half-sister thing. Chapter 20 also makes it clear that God did not allow Abimelech to touch Sarah. There’s no such assurance in the older narrative involving Pharaoh at Genesis 12.
I’ve not read it yet, but I guess need to. There’s so much I want to get to including more books of the Apocrypha.
Here’s a bizarre passage of the Talmud I just found. First, the word “yevama” means “widow of a brother". It's used in the context of yibbum, which is the practice of a deceased man's brother marrying his widowed sister-in-law.
Yevamot 54a: a sleeping man has not acquired his yevama, as he did not intend to perform the act of intercourse at all? Rather, the mishna was referring to one who was inserted into his yevama by accident. But didn’t Rabba say: One who fell from a roof and was inserted into a woman due to the force of his fall is liable to pay four of the five types of indemnity that must be paid by one who damaged another: Injury, pain, medical costs, and loss of livelihood. However, he is not liable to pay for the shame he caused her, as he did not intend to perform the act, and if she is his yevama, he has not acquired her in this manner.
WTF?! When and how would that even happen? I wish I could chat with the writer.
Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 09 Jan 2025, 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I’m not sure if I’m citing these correctly. I need to research this stuff more.
Mishnah Yevamot 6:4 A High Priest may not marry a widow, whether she is a widow from betrothal or a widow from marriage. And he may not marry a grown woman. He may marry only a minor or a young woman. Rabbi Elazar and Rabbi Shimon declare a grown woman fit to marry a High Priest. And he may not marry a woman whose hymen was torn accidentally.
More sexual abuse that was alluded to in the video and CSA in Islamic texts. Major trigger warning.
Yevamot 57b Rava said: We, too, learn in the following baraita that there is no legal significance to an act of intercourse with a girl less than three years old: A girl three years and one day old can be betrothed via sexual intercourse; and if she was a yevama and her yavam had intercourse with her, he has acquired her; and a man who has intercourse with her while she is married to someone else is liable on her account because of the prohibition of intercourse with a married woman
I wonder why it’s not given more attention. People lose their s**t when comparable stuff is in Islamic texts:
Sahih Bukhari 7:62:64 Narrated `Aisha: that the Prophet (ﷺ) married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 8:73:151 Narrated `Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.).
^ To be fair, other books in the Talmud say the opposite. Kiddushin 41a: “It is prohibited for a person to betroth his daughter to a man when she is a minor, until such time that she grows up and says: I want to marry so-and-so.”
A problematic passage involving women:
Shabbat 152a:12 “A woman is essentially a flask full of feces, a reference to the digestive system, and her mouth is full of blood, a euphemistic reference to menstruation, yet men are not deterred and they all run after her with desire.”
There’s many, many more instances of name-calling in the Bible. Maybe I’ll make that a topic of a future post. IMO, this common thread is one of the more toxic aspects of Bible-based religion, especially of the fundamentalist variety.
I often heard verses that discount human wisdom and claim it’s mere foolishness compared to the wisdom of God in church.
Do not deceive yourselves. If you think that you are wise in this age, you should become fools so that you may become wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written,
“He catches the wise in their craftiness,” 20 and again,
“The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”
Given that we’re the most intelligent beings we can know for certain exist, I suppose religious leaders would need to push our supposed lack of wisdom in order to bolster the concept of subservience and the need for a god. Much like an abusive partner or spouse, that seems to largely be what name-calling or otherwise degrading scriptures in the Bible and Quran are about.
^ I just discovered him today, and so far, I like his videos quite a bit. He was raised in an Assembly of God church, so he was a Pentecostal. I can relate to a lot of what he says in his video “Inside Christian Fundamentalism.” It’s interesting to me because, despite sharing some common traits, my church always had a very negative perception of Pentecostals due to the speaking in tongues stuff. JWs think that such behavior could be demon influence.
The Lord said: Because the daughters of Zion are haughty and walk with outstretched necks, glancing wantonly with their eyes, mincing along as they go, tinkling with their feet; 17 the Lord will smite with a scab the heads of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will lay bare their secret parts.
Translation here can lead to very different readings:
Quote:
The Hebrew word rendered secret parts (an English euphemism for the female vulva and genital hair) is rare, so its precise meaning is debated. In 1 Kgs 7.50 it seems to mean “sockets,” thus suggesting here a woman’s private parts. Exposing a person’s private parts was another typical way of humiliating them. On the other hand, several English translations make this line parallel with the previous one and refer to the women’s foreheads or scalps being exposed (so Good News Translation, New International Version, New Jerusalem Bible, New American Bible, Revised English Bible, New Jewish Publication Society’s Tanakh). However, the evidence for this view is from a related language, not Hebrew. The forceful nature of the language in these two verses leads us to prefer the Revised Standard Version rendering (also Contemporary English Version), but translators may choose to follow the majority view. An alternative model for this line is “and the LORD will expose their nakedness.”
The New International Version covers up this embarrassing passage with “make their scalps bald” in place of “discover their secret parts [Hebrew: poth = vagina].” Other translations are more honest: The Orthodox Jewish Bible has “lay bare their nakedness,” Amplified Bible “stripped naked,” Complete Jewish Bible “expose their private parts,” Common English Version “uncover their private parts”. […] Even if “daughters of Zion” is a metaphor for Israel, it is a metaphor of sexual assault.
Sometimes translators do try to soften scriptures when an opportunity to do so presents itself. Well, poor translations demonstrate bias without any justification whatsoever.
In Judges 18, the Danites, one of the 12 tribes, attacks a peaceful and unprepared city to acquire the land.
Judges 18:27 wrote:
The Danites, having taken what Micah had made [idols] and the priest who belonged to him, came to Laish, to a people quiet and unsuspecting, put them to the sword, and burned down the city.
According to Jewish tradition the book [Judges] was attributed to the prophet Samuel, but modern scholars view it as part of the Deuteronomistic History, which spans in the books of Deuteronomy to 2 Kings, attributed to nationalistic and devotedly Yahwistic writers during the time of the reformer Judean king Josiah in 7th century BCE.
I quoted a different translation of the following chapter elsewhere, but I wanted to post it here for reference purposes. Verses 19 and 20 have already been quoted but much of the rest is disturbing and a worthy addition to this thread. I underlined what I consider some of the more problematic passages:
The word of the Lord came to me: 2 Mortal, there were two women, the daughters of one mother; 3 they prostituted themselves in Egypt; they prostituted themselves in their youth; their breasts were caressed there, and their virgin bosoms were fondled. 4 Oholah was the name of the older and Oholibah the name of her sister. They became mine, and they bore sons and daughters. As for their names, Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.
5 Oholah prostituted herself while she was mine; she lusted after her lovers the Assyrians, warriors 6 clothed in blue, governors and commanders, all of them handsome young men, mounted horsemen. 7 She bestowed her sexual favors upon them, the choicest men of Assyria all of them, and she defiled herself with all the idols of everyone for whom she lusted. 8 She did not give up her prostitutions that she had practiced since Egypt, for in her youth men had lain with her and fondled her virgin bosom and poured out their lust upon her. 9 Therefore I delivered her into the hands of her lovers, into the hands of the Assyrians, for whom she lusted. 10 These uncovered her nakedness; they seized her sons and her daughters, and they killed her with the sword. Judgment was executed upon her, and she became a byword among women.
11 Her sister Oholibah saw this, yet she was more corrupt than she in her lusting and in her prostitutions, which were worse than those of her sister. 12 She lusted after the Assyrians, governors and commanders, warriors clothed in full armor, mounted horsemen, all of them handsome young men. 13 And I saw that she was defiled; they both took the same way. 14 But she carried her prostitutions further; she saw male figures carved on the wall, images of the Chaldeans portrayed in vermilion, 15 with belts around their waists, with flowing turbans on their heads, all of them looking like officers—a picture of Babylonians whose native land was Chaldea. 16 When she saw them she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea. 17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their lust, and after she defiled herself with them, she turned from them in disgust. 18 When she carried on her prostitutions so openly and flaunted her nakedness, I turned in disgust from her, as I had turned from her sister. 19 Yet she increased her prostitutions, remembering the days of her youth, when she prostituted herself in the land of Egypt 20 and lusted after her paramours there, whose members were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of stallions. 21 Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians fondled your bosom and caressed your young breasts.
22 Therefore, O Oholibah, thus says the Lord God: I will rouse against you your lovers from whom you turned in disgust, and I will bring them against you from every side: 23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them, handsome young men, governors and commanders all of them, officers and select leaders, all of them riding on horses. 24 They shall come against you from the north with chariots and wagons and a host of peoples; they shall set themselves against you on every side with buckler, shield, and helmet, and I will commit the judgment to them, and they shall judge you according to their ordinances. 25 I will direct my indignation against you, in order that they may deal with you in fury. They shall cut off your nose and your ears, and your survivors shall fall by the sword. They shall seize your sons and your daughters, and your survivors shall be devoured by fire. 26 They shall also strip you of your clothes and take away your fine jewels. 27 So I will put an end to your lewdness and your prostitution brought from the land of Egypt; you shall not long for them or remember Egypt any more. 28 For thus says the Lord God: I will deliver you into the hands of those whom you hate, into the hands of those from whom you turned in disgust, 29 and they shall deal with you in hatred and take away all the fruit of your labor and leave you naked and bare, and the nakedness of your prostitutions shall be exposed. Your lewdness and your prostitutions 30 have brought this upon you, because you prostituted yourself with the nations and polluted yourself with their idols. 31 You have gone the way of your sister; therefore I will give her cup into your hand. 32 Thus says the Lord God:
You shall drink your sister’s cup, deep and wide; it will bring scorn and derision; it holds so much. 33 You shall be filled with drunkenness and sorrow. A cup of horror and desolation is the cup of your sister Samaria; 34 you shall drink it and drain it out and gnaw its sherds and tear out your breasts, for I have spoken, says the Lord God.
35 Therefore thus says the Lord God: Because you have forgotten me and cast me behind your back, therefore bear the consequences of your lewdness and prostitutions.
36 The Lord said to me: Mortal, will you judge Oholah and Oholibah? Then declare to them their abominable deeds. 37 For they have committed adultery, and blood is on their hands; with their idols they have committed adultery, and they have even offered up to them for food the children whom they had borne to me. 38 Moreover, this they have done to me: they have defiled my sanctuary on the same day and profaned my Sabbaths. 39 For when they had slaughtered their children for their idols, on the same day they came into my sanctuary to profane it. This is what they did in my house.
40 They even sent for men to come from far away, to whom a messenger was sent, and they came. For them you bathed yourself, painted your eyes, and decked yourself with ornaments; 41 you sat on a stately couch, with a table spread before it on which you had placed my incense and my oil. 42 The sound of a raucous multitude was around her, with many of the rabble brought in drunken from the wilderness, and they put bracelets on the arms of the women and beautiful crowns upon their heads.
43 Then I said, “Ah, she is worn out with adulteries, but they carry on their sexual acts with her.” 44 They have gone in to her as one goes in to a prostitute. Thus they went in to Oholah and to Oholibah, wanton women. 45 But righteous judges shall declare them guilty of adultery and of bloodshed, because they are adulteresses, and blood is on their hands.
46 For thus says the Lord God: Bring up an assembly against them, and make them an object of terror and of plunder. 47 The assembly shall stone them, and with their swords they shall cut them down; they shall kill their sons and their daughters and burn up their houses. 48 Thus will I put an end to lewdness in the land, so that all women may take warning and not commit lewdness as you have done. 49 They shall repay you for your lewdness, and you shall bear the penalty for your sinful idolatry, and you shall know that I am the Lord God.
King David, His Family, and God’s Sexual Obsession, Depravity, and Abuse I cited the account of King David and Bathsheba a while back here. I wanted to talk about other problematic events centered on sex, including of the nonconsensual variety, involving David, his family, and God.
David had at least 8 wives (Michal, Ahinoam, Abigail, Maachah, Haggith, Abital, Eglah, Bathsheba) and 10 concubines which will feature in this post. Of course, that’s nothing compared to his son Solomon who “among his wives were seven hundred princesses and three hundred concubines” (1 Kings 11:3). The family was apparently obsessed with sex. It seems like David, Solomon, Amnon, and Absalom had boners 24/7. Well, that’s how I picture them anyway.
As I pointed out in the previous post that’s linked in the first paragraph, God punished David for having sex with Bathsheba and for essentially murdering her husband, Uriah, by killing his and Bathsheba’s first child - an infant, naturally. The situation with Bathsheba was questionable from a consent point of view, but I’ve tended to give David the benefit of the doubt.
Something that I didn’t mention in my previous post was the fact that, in addition to punishing David by killing his son, God states the following:
Thus says the Lord: I will raise up trouble against you from within your own house, and I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor, and he shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. 12 For you did it secretly, but I will do this thing before all Israel and in broad daylight.
^ Keep these rapey verses in mind because we’ll get back to them after the disturbing story I will relay below, but first I wanted to cite another passage where God advocates rape as punishment:
See, a day is coming for the Lord, when the plunder taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped
Now to one of the narratives I wanted to address, David’s son Amnon gets the hots for one of his half-sisters Tamar. Their cousin Jonadab comes up with a brilliant plan which Amnon carries out:
Some time passed. David’s son Absalom had a beautiful sister whose name was Tamar, and David’s son Amnon fell in love with her. 2 Amnon was so tormented that he made himself ill because of his sister Tamar, for she was a virgin, and it seemed impossible to Amnon to do anything to her. 3 But Amnon had a friend whose name was Jonadab, the son of David’s brother Shimeah, and Jonadab was a very crafty man. 4 He said to him, “O son of the king, why are you so haggard morning after morning? Will you not tell me?” Amnon said to him, “I love Tamar, my brother Absalom’s sister.” 5 Jonadab said to him, “Lie down on your bed and pretend to be ill, and when your father comes to see you, say to him, ‘Let my sister Tamar come and give me something to eat and prepare the food in my sight, so that I may see it and eat it from her hand.’ ” 6 So Amnon lay down and pretended to be ill, and when the king came to see him, Amnon said to the king, “Please let my sister Tamar come and make a couple of cakes in my sight, so that I may eat from her hand.”
7 Then David sent home to Tamar, saying, “Go to your brother Amnon’s house and prepare food for him.” 8 So Tamar went to her brother Amnon’s house, where he was lying down. She took dough, kneaded it, made cakes in his sight, and baked the cakes. 9 Then she took the pan and set them before him, but he refused to eat. Amnon said, “Send out everyone from me.” So everyone went out from him. 10 Then Amnon said to Tamar, “Bring the food into the chamber so that I may eat from your hand.” So Tamar took the cakes she had made and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother. 11 But when she brought them near him to eat, he took hold of her and said to her, “Come, lie with me, my sister.” 12 She answered him, “No, my brother, do not force me, for such a thing is not done in Israel; do not do anything so vile! 13 As for me, where could I carry my shame? And as for you, you would be as one of the scoundrels in Israel. Now therefore, I beg you, speak to the king, for he will not withhold me from you.” 14 But he would not listen to her, and being stronger than she, he forced her and lay with her.
After raping her, Amnon decides that he hates her and locks her out. This devastates Tamar because men were supposed to marry the women they raped, likely because women couldn’t provide for themselves and, as damaged property, raped women wouldn’t often be deemed marriage material in a culture that valued female virginity.
If a man meets a virgin who is not engaged and seizes her and lies with her, and they are discovered, 29 the man who lay with her shall give fifty shekels of silver to the young woman’s father, and she shall become his wife. Because he violated her, he shall not be permitted to divorce her as long as he lives.
God, being stupid, couldn’t come up with anything better than the brilliant idea of having women marry their rapist.
Speaking of stupid, here’s what Absalom has to say to Tamar after she was raped and subsequently rejected by Amnon:
“Has Amnon your brother been with you? Be quiet for now, my sister; he is your brother; do not take this to heart.” So Tamar remained, a desolate woman, in her brother Absalom’s house.
”Do not take this to heart.” At least, he takes his sister in, but don’t get attached to the idea that he’s a good person or anything.
When King David heard of all these things, he became very angry, but he would not punish his son Amnon because he loved him, for he was his firstborn.
If we go with the narrative that the Bible is the literal word of God, this begs the question: couldn’t God have found someone better? David is celebrated in various parts of the Bible. In Jesus’s genealogy, David is marked as one of Jesus’s ancestors in both Matthew and Luke which, while inconsistent with each other in other ways, are meant to legitimize Jesus. Luke 1:69 says that God “has raised up a mighty savior for us in the house of his child David.”
Anyway, 2 Samuel 13:22 says that “Absalom spoke to Amnon neither good nor bad, for Absalom hated Amnon because he had raped his sister Tamar.” He decides to have Amnon murdered which makes David upset although he gets over it eventually and forgives Absalom. However, in chapter 15, Absalom betrays David and usurps the throne which brings us to David’s 10 concubines:
A messenger came to David, saying, “The hearts of the Israelites have gone after Absalom.” 14 Then David said to all his officials who were with him at Jerusalem, “Get up! Let us flee, or there will be no escape for us from Absalom. Hurry, or he will soon overtake us, and bring disaster down upon us, and attack the city with the edge of the sword.” 15 The king’s officials said to the king, “Your servants are ready to do whatever our lord the king decides.” 16 So the king left, followed by all his household, except ten concubines whom he left behind to look after the house.
Now that the concubines are left unguarded, this is what Absalom proceeds to do which fulfills God’s rapey punishment that’s in the first quote of this post:
Then Absalom said to Ahithophel, “Give us your counsel; what shall we do?” 21 Ahithophel said to Absalom, “Go in to your father’s concubines, the ones he has left to look after the house, and all Israel will hear that you have made yourself odious to your father, and the hands of all who are with you will be strengthened.” 22 So they pitched a tent for Absalom upon the roof, and Absalom went in to his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.
This is a euphemistic way to say that Absalom raped the concubines. Since God indicated that it was part of David’s punishment, he and Absalom both prove themselves to be as*holes. Of course, an omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient deity who fails to protect people from abuse would be culpable regardless. At any rate, the following verse tells us about the fate of the women:
David came to his house at Jerusalem, and the king took the ten concubines whom he had left to look after the house and put them in a house under guard and provided for them but did not go in to them. So they were shut up until the day of their death, living as if in widowhood.
Moral of the story: if you’re a woman, try to avoid hanging out with David and his sh***y family, and if you must, make sure you have pepper spray, a taser, or handgun within reach.
If there is a young woman, a virgin already engaged to be married, and a man meets her in the town and lies with her, 24 you shall bring both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death, the young woman because she did not cry for help in the town and the man because he violated his neighbor’s wife. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.
If a virgin is engaged to a man, and another man happens to meet her in the city and lies down with her, 24 you should bring them both out to the gate of that city and stone them to death, the girl because she did not scream in the city and the man because he humiliated the wife of his fellow man. So you must remove what is evil from your midst.
Harmful Passages from the Watchtower on Rape On the topic of rape, I thought I would share some words of wisdom from the Watchtower - stuff that I grew up with that’s based on scriptures that have been quoted throughout this thread and that could be considered an extension of them. First, I think I’ll explain a bit about the profound impact the articles have on people.
JWs are trained to turn to the Watchtower and get its input on specific topics whenever they are dealing with an issue - large or small. People used to have bound volumes of old Watchtower and Awake! magazines which included very thorough index volumes so readers could easily explore specific topics. (The Awake!, like the Watchtower, is a JW magazine from the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society - often shortened to Watchtower, as in this post, or WBTS. When I refer to the magazine, I italicize.) It basically looked like a large set of encyclopedias. Now JWs just utilize the website when they want to “research” a topic. They are still urged to turn to the Watchtower first when they are struggling with a particular problem, so they can get “God’s thoughts” on the matter.
The first quotes I’m citing are from the 1984 Awake! article “They Resisted Rapists.” I remember reading it in a bound volume when I was a teenager and dealing with unwanted behavior. Entering the word “rape” in the website’s online library search engine, it’s still one of the first results that comes up. I attached links to Watchtower and Awake! articles in the top part of quote tags. I also linked the scriptures and underlined the worst parts of passages throughout this post although it’s all epically stupid and goddamn awful. JFC.
GENERALLY rapists try to get a woman in some isolated place where people are not around. At times they have a weapon and threaten to use it if the victim does not cooperate. Should a Christian quietly submit?
No, the situation is not the same as when a man simply is asking for money or other material possessions. A woman wisely would give him these. But the rapist is asking a person to break God’s law by committing fornication. Under such circumstances a Christian is obligated to resist.—1 Corinthians 6:18.
Yes, so if you’re raped but don’t fight back for whatever reason, you could be committing fornication. This BS has led to victims feeling guilty and blaming themselves.
The following passage from the same article may be the most idiotic thing I have ever read.
Watchtower wrote:
Treat Him Respectfully
The intended victim should remember that the rapist is a human. No doubt there are circumstances in his life that have precipitated his behavior. So although a woman should not cower in fear and permit a rapist to intimidate her, at the same time she should treat him understandingly, as a fellow human.
I can’t even begin to express how messed up that is, especially in practice, so I won’t try.
The next passage featuring an alleged experience is telling:
Watchtower wrote:
He said he would kill me if I did not let him rape me. Then he started pushing me to the couch, so I quoted Matthew 16:26, which says: ‘For what benefit will it be to a man if he gains the whole world but forfeits his soul? or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?’
“The man stopped pushing me and asked what the scripture meant. So I explained that if I resisted him and remained faithful to my God and my husband, and was killed for this faithfulness, I would have a hope of being resurrected to a Paradise earth and everlasting life. But if I gave in and he raped me, I would eventually die and have no hope of a resurrection.
“The intruder knew he was not going to talk me into letting him rape me, so he started pulling at my clothing. I remembered the scripture at Deuteronomy chapter 22 that says if you are attacked in the city and do not scream it is considered the same as consenting. [See the first two quotes at the top of this post.]
Watchtower wrote:
Surely, it is a terrible ordeal to face a man intent on rape. When the man has a weapon and no one else is around, the situation is especially frightening. Yet, even then, rather than being intimidated by threats and submitting, the Scripturally proper course is to resist.
The following excerpt is from a 1986 Awake! article “Now You Are Going to Die!” featuring a woman who had done her “moral duty” as a victim of kidnapping and assault by fighting back and successfully avoiding an attempted rape:
My conscience was clean, my self-respect and dignity were intact. And I had kept my integrity to Almighty God, Jehovah!
[…]
I was profoundly thankful to know these simple words [the passage in Deuteronomy 22]. They had taught me my moral duty.
The following quotes are from the 1980 Watchtower article “Avoiding the Tragedy of Rape.” When I typed “rape” into the search engine of their online library, this was the 8th result. However, a few of the others that came up first were either superfluous or off-topic, so this article is likely still being read by a lot of people seeking help and guidance.
Back in March 1974, Awake! magazine described how a man with a gun had held two of Jehovah’s Witnesses prisoner in a hotel room. As he reached for the zipper on one girl’s blouse, she exclaimed: “No! No! Not that!” She told him that if he touched her she would scream as he had never heard anyone scream before. She explained that if she did not she would ruin her relationship with Jehovah God and the Christian congregation. (Compare Deuteronomy 22:22-29.) Her firm demand: “Don’t you touch me or come near me” kept the rapist at bay.
This woman did the Scripturally proper thing, which actually is the best thing to do. A Christian woman is under obligation to resist, for the issue of obedience to God’s law to “flee from fornication” is involved. (1 Cor. 6:18) By no means would it be proper for her willingly to submit to being raped.
From the same article about date rape:
Watchtower wrote:
[M]any persons view dating as a sort of game, rather than a means for becoming acquainted with a prospective marriage mate. But what often happens when a woman consents to going to an isolated place with a man, perhaps engaging in kissing and necking with him? For many men in today’s immoral society such preliminary sex play is a “promise” of sexual intercourse, and they will force a woman to keep that “promise.” Even if the young man intends to behave honorably, the sexual arousal of kissing and necking may override his good intentions and he may force himself on the girl.
Apparently, the writing department of the Watchtower contained some rapists when this article was written. That’s the only way I can account for it. In any case, this s**t teaches JW readers that men can’t control themselves.
Women need to be careful about where they go, what they wear, and how they behave:
Watchtower wrote:
There is even greater need today for women to avoid behavior that men may misinterpret as an invitation to have sexual relations with them. Frederic Straska, who has studied and lectured extensively on rape, observed:
“Women indirectly tease men whenever they do anything in public view that might lead others to believe they’ve had or they’re having sex with someone. I’m talking mostly about public displays of affection, but there are other things that could give this impression.
“Nowadays, a lot of young men and women set up housekeeping without the benefit of matrimony, which is surely their own business. But there may be some men around who think otherwise. These men figure that any woman who’s willing to live with, and obviously sleep with, a man without marrying him is an easy mark.”
Because of your respect for God’s laws on morality, you doubtless would never agree to have sex relations with a man to whom you are not married. Yet other behavior could cause persons to think you are a woman of easy virtue. For example, if you went to certain bars or discos, where women of questionable morals go, men understandably might assume that you, too, are that type of woman.
Also, dressing in immodest, revealing clothes can serve as a tease or “come-on” to men. In this regard, the Bible has some very pertinent and valuable counsel. It advises “women to adorn themselves in well-arranged dress, with modesty.”—1 Timothy 2:9.
The following batshit crazy passage from the same Watchtower involves the Genesis account of Dinah. She’s Jacob and Leah’s daughter who is raped when she visits her friends in Canaan. JWs often spin this into a victim-blaming story about the perils of hanging out with nonbelievers, including in their still popular publication for young children My Book of Bible Stories. (It’s referred to as My Book of Horror Stories by exJWs.)
Watchtower wrote:
Dinah failed to act with discretion. The Bible says that she “used to go out to see the daughters of the land.” (Genesis 34:1) The inhabitants of Canaan were immoral people, prostitution evidently being common. (Gen. 34:31; 38:21) Dinah apparently had no business being out by herself among them. Likely her parents had warned her about associating with the girls of the land. If they had, she failed to listen, and this led to trouble.
Similarly, many young women today are raped because of needlessly putting themselves in compromising situations. Hitchhikers do this. In Oregon’s Multnomah county a person reportedly is raped every day. And more than half of those raped are young hitchhikers!
Many men are just looking for someone with whom to have sexual relations, and they assume that a woman who hitchhikes is, in effect, offering herself for that purpose. This has become a rather common view. For example, a California judge, explaining why a rape conviction was overturned, wrote: “It would not be unreasonable for a man in the position of the defendant here to believe that the female [hitchhiker] would engage in sexual relations.” Such a view may seem callous and wrong, but it illustrates the realities of the world today.
Although a man has no right to force a woman to have sex with him, under any circumstances, women need to be discerning as to how their actions are perceived by men. The chieftain’s son who raped Dinah may have assumed that to venture out by herself, Dinah must have been a girl of easy virtue. He may have concluded that her visits were not just to see some girl friends, but especially to see him. So he may have believed Dinah really wanted what she got.
Watchtower wrote:
Learn, too, from the sad experience of Tamar, the young woman who was maneuvered by her half brother Amnon into an isolated place where he raped her. This case illustrates the need to be aware, to be conscious of the attitudes and feelings of others toward you. If Tamar had earlier detected Amnon’s passionate feelings for her, she might have been able to avoid getting into the situation she did.
Of course, a woman simply cannot anticipate all possibilities. For example, a young woman spent a weekend at her girl friend’s home. In the morning, while she was still in bed, her girl friend and her mother went to do some grocery shopping, leaving her home alone with the father. He came into the room where she was resting and sat on her bed. When he told her he wanted to make love to her, she was so shocked and confused she put up little struggle.
[…]
So the young woman mentioned above should have countered the rape threat immediately, in a firm, absolute manner, not as a passive individual groping for a response. She might have said something to this effect: “What would you think if this were happening to your own daughter? You know, some think your daughter and I look much alike.”
Even if that approach did not stop the aggression, if she, right from the start, had shown herself to be a difficult, aggressive opponent, the rape no doubt could have been avoided.
Here’s a passage from the 1974 Awake! article “Faced with the Threat of Rape” which was referenced in a previous quote involving a woman fighting off an attacker.
She exclaimed: “No! No! Not that!” and told him that if he touched her she would scream as he had never heard anyone scream before and that if he was going to shoot he might as well go ahead and shoot because if she did not scream she would be as good as dead anyhow.
She told him that marriage was honorable before God and that she was married, but that what he wanted to do was not honorable. Also, that if she did not scream she would ruin her relationship with Jehovah God and the Christian congregation; that then she would be disfellowshiped or excommunicated from it and that this would be worse than being killed as far as she was concerned.
WTF:
Watchtower wrote:
Womankind must share the blame. To begin with, until the age of five or six years, the most vital period, little boys have their personalities molded largely by women, their mothers. And as they grow up, it is usually the mother that has the most opportunities to inculcate in her son respect for womankind, both by word and by example. But far too many mothers have come short in this regard. Especially and specifically blameworthy are those female relatives, such as an aunt or even a mother, who have used boys as sexual playthings, thereby starting them on a road that leads to their having aggressive feelings toward women.
A new American motion picture star who aims to occupy the place once held by America’s previous sex symbol brags about her charms and about her ability to arouse men by displaying herself in motion pictures. Such actresses must also share in the blame for the increase in rapes, for after men have seen them on the screen they frequently go out and attack a woman who may be a paragon of virtue.
Homophobia is expressed for no reason in this 1982 Awake! article on incest:
[A]s in the case of homosexuality, the Bible views it as a crime worthy of the death penalty: “You people must not come near, any man of you, to any close fleshly relative of his to lay bare nakedness. I am Jehovah. In case anyone does any of all these detestable things, then the souls doing them must be cut off.”—Leviticus 18:6, 29.
Well, I’m sure they had a reason. They were pushing their bigoted agenda.
This 1993 Awake! mentions marital rape in a footnote:
Marital rape occurs when a husband overpowers his wife and forces himself on her sexually.
Once again, their emphasis is on physical force. Other methods of rape don’t count. Wives would likely be told to be more submissive or that they were somehow responsible for the husband’s behavior.
Here’s an example of domestic violence from a 2012 Watchtower that shifts the focus to the woman (e.g. victim blames) while encouraging women to stay in an abusive marriage.
Selma recalls a lesson she learned from the Witness who studied with her. “On one particular day,” says Selma, “I didn’t want to have a Bible study. The night before, Steve had hit me as I had tried to prove a point, and I was feeling sad and sorry for myself. After I told the sister what had happened and how I felt, she asked me to read 1 Corinthians 13:4-7. As I did, I began to reason, ‘Steve never does any of these loving things for me.’ But the sister made me think differently by asking, ‘How many of those acts of love do you show toward your husband?’ My answer was, ‘None, for he is so difficult to live with.’ The sister softly said, ‘Selma, who is trying to be a Christian here? You or Steve?’ Realizing that I needed to adjust my thinking, I prayed to Jehovah to help me be more loving toward Steve. Slowly, things started to change.”After 17 years, Steve accepted the truth.
To be fair, their more recent articles are often a bit better although they still won’t accept domestic violence as a valid reason for divorce and will only allow separation for abuse if it’s extreme physical abuse. They often clarify in sermons that the physical abuse has to be severe enough that the victim’s life is in danger.
They never claim that they were wrong, they never apologize for the harm they’ve caused, and they haven’t removed harmful trash from their website. They also claim to have a monopoly on Truth.
I just came across an awful excerpt from a 2003 Watchtower. It’s not so much an article but the Watchtower’s response to a supposed question from an alleged reader: “Why does the Bible say that a person should scream if threatened with rape?”
While the Watchtower does acknowledge that people can freeze on account of fear, they still say similar nonsense that they stated in past articles. Here are some of the highlights:
Although Christians today are not under the Mosaic Law, the principles mentioned therein provide them with guidance. The [passage in Deuteronomy 22] underscores the importance of resisting and screaming for help.
[…]
Even in the sad case where a woman is overpowered and raped, her struggle and screaming for help is not in vain. On the contrary, it establishes that she did all she possibly could to resist her attacker. (Deuteronomy 22:26) Despite going through this ordeal, she can still have an undefiled conscience, self-respect, and the assurance that she is clean in God’s eyes. The horrifying experience might leave her with emotional wounds, but knowing that she did all she could to resist the attack will greatly contribute to her gradual healing.
[…]
[God] is aware of what actually took place and of the efforts the victim put forth to fight off her attacker. Therefore, a victim who was unable to scream but otherwise did all she could under the circumstances can leave matters in Jehovah’s hands.—Psalm 55:22; 1 Peter 5:7.
Even so, some Christian women who have been attacked and violated are incessantly pained by feelings of guilt. In hindsight, they feel that they should have done more to prevent the incident from happening. However, instead of blaming themselves, such victims can pray to Jehovah, ask for his help, and have confidence in his abundant loving-kindness.—Exodus 34:6; Psalm 86:5.
[…]
[T]he victims’ own efforts to concentrate on positive thoughts will help them to experience “the peace of God that excels all thought.”—Philippians 4:6-9.
Anyway, all of this nonsense has led to situations like the one that’s in the video below, involving a 14 year old who was groomed and raped by an 18 year old. The elders made the victim listen to the audio recording of one of her rapes. She didn’t know that she had been recorded. The elders decided that her lack of resistance equaled consent. She was disfellowshipped
The relevant bit starts at around 18:30. Listening for 20 minutes is probably enough to give you an idea.
f**k the Watchtower, f**k the Bible, and f**k Jehovah. Yeah, he’s not real, but f**k him anyway.
04 Jan 2025, 11:44 am
There’s so much I want to get to including more books of the Apocrypha. 
At least, he takes his sister in, but don’t get attached to the idea that he’s a good person or anything.
