Obamacare

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hanyo
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31 Oct 2013, 4:01 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Regardless of what you hear on Fox or from Beck or Limbaugh, that "free stuff" is actually pretty meager. Try living on food stamps for a month.
As for isolating the right - if anything, the right has done more with it's embrace of the lunatic fringe to push itself away from mainstream society than I or anybody on the left could ever do.

I have a permanently disabled aunt that lives on ssdi and food stamps and my friend's elderly retired mother lives on her social security and food stamps and they barely get enough to survive (less than $1k a month total income). My mother might never be able to retire. If she retires at 62 she would only get $800 a month.

One thing many people don't realize is that Medicaid isn't free for many people. Mine is because my income is $0. Some people have to pay something called "spend down". My grandmother's total income was only around $700-800 a month and she usually had to pay $20-$30 a month. My disabled aunt doesn't even have Medicaid because they told her she would have to pay $70 a month and she couldn't afford it. She is in chronic pain and never even gets any medical care at all.

auntblabby
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31 Oct 2013, 4:20 pm

adb wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

adb wrote:

I guess none of us are the winners under the ACA.

WRONG. for the first time since I can't remember when, I now have real health insurance coverage that I can actually afford, meaning I no longer have to spend over half my income on a catastrophic-only plan. people who opposed universal health care always managed to leave out the fact of the subsidies.

I wasn't including you in "us". We're paying for your health care. What did you do to earn it?

so you don't consider me an american citizen then, just because i'm poor?! EARN IT???! !! jesus h. tap-dancing Christ, what social Darwinism. :roll:

ALL other western nations consider health care a basic right of ALL their citizens, only in backwards America do TP like yourself consider it a privilege only for those with money. disgusting ableist bushwa rushfan classist arrogance on display rather than what is expected on a support forum for aspies, namely support for those of us less-abled.

zer0netgain
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01 Nov 2013, 11:11 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Why can't you just make corrections on the ACA to make it better? Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Just spend a year studying how the law works and then understand that the ACA is tens of thousands of pages long.

You can't "fix" something like that. All the bad stuff is interwoven throughout the bill.

It would be easier to enumerate what of the ACA (if anything) is good and scuttle the ACA in favor of a replacement that first establishes those good things and amend that as needed over the next several years.

adb
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01 Nov 2013, 11:26 am

auntblabby wrote:

adb wrote:

auntblabby wrote:

adb wrote:

I guess none of us are the winners under the ACA.

I wasn't including you in "us". We're paying for your health care. What did you do to earn it?

so you don't consider me an american citizen then, just because i'm poor?! EARN IT???! !!

I explained my company's situation. In all uses of "we" or "us" in my post, I was referring to my employees and myself. You assumed that when I said "none of us are the winners under the ACA", I was speaking about the American public. This assumption is wrong.

Quote:

jesus h. tap-dancing Christ, what social Darwinism. :roll:

It's how the universe works, right or wrong. Whether you accept it or deny it doesn't change reality.

Quote:

ALL other western nations consider health care a basic right of ALL their citizens,

I don't consider health care to be a basic right. Claiming that health care is a basic right is embracing an entitlement attitude that will prevent you from succeeding in life.

Quote:

only in backwards America do TP like yourself consider it a privilege only for those with money. disgusting ableist bushwa rushfan classist arrogance on display rather than what is expected on a support forum for aspies, namely support for those of us less-abled.

I don't know if I interpreted this part correctly, but I'll try to respond anyway.

I'm not a member of the Tea Party. I didn't support Bush. I don't listen to Rush. I'm not a fan of the republicans any more than I am of the democrats. I dislike all politicians pretty much equally.

My disgust for being forced to pay for social welfare is not contempt for the poor or disabled. But I do feel contempt for people who feel that they are entitled to take the wealth that I produce. This isn't classist arrogance. It's reasonable frustration with being treated unfairly under the law.

sonofghandi
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01 Nov 2013, 11:31 am

zer0netgain wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Why can't you just make corrections on the ACA to make it better? Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Just spend a year studying how the law works and then understand that the ACA is tens of thousands of pages long.

you mean 960 pages, which is fairly small, comparatively.

zer0netgain wrote:

You can't "fix" something like that. All the bad stuff is interwoven throughout the bill.

It would be easier to enumerate what of the ACA (if anything) is good and scuttle the ACA in favor of a replacement that first establishes those good things and amend that as needed over the next several years.

The standard way of making major changes to an act is to pass another act that expands, reduces, or revises the original one. Striking down any act in its entirety is not something that is likely to happen. The Republicans should have taken part in the process of creating the bill instead of just pretending like it would go away if they shouted loud enough.

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Kraichgauer
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01 Nov 2013, 11:36 am

zer0netgain wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Why can't you just make corrections on the ACA to make it better? Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

If you scrap the whole thing with the intent of establishing something "better" over the next several years, what are guys like AuntBlabby and I are going to do in the meantime? We've been waiting long enough.
And yes, there is plenty that is good about the ACA.

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sonofghandi
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01 Nov 2013, 11:53 am

adb wrote:

I dislike all politicians pretty much equally.

agreed.

adb wrote:

My disgust for being forced to pay for social welfare is not contempt for the poor or disabled. But I do feel contempt for people who feel that they are entitled to take the wealth that I produce. This isn't classist arrogance. It's reasonable frustration with being treated unfairly under the law.

I fully understand the disgust for those who have an I'm entitled no matter what attitude. At the same time, the wealth that you produce would be significantly less if tens of millions of people were suddenly without that money. And even the amount of money most people get in assistance is a pittance. In Ohio, the average amount of food assistance given out is $1.40 per meal. That's not $1.40/meal per person, either.

USDA research shows that each $5 of federal SNAP/Food Stamp benefits generates nearly twice that in economic activity.

A study by Moody's found that increasing food assistance is the fastest and most effective way to increase economic activity.
Some other interesting info from that study is the following list showing economic impact per $1 spent:
Federal food assistance: $1.73
Extended unemployment benefits: $1.64
Infrastructure spending: $1.59
Aid to states: $1.36
Single day payroll tax holiday: $1.29
Refundable tax rebates: $1.26
Temporary across the board tax cuts: $1.03
Non-refundable tax rebates: $1.02
The AMT patch: $0.48
Dividend and capital gains tax cuts: $0.37
Corporate tax cuts: $0.30
Making the Bush tax cuts permanent: $0.29

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Jacoby
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01 Nov 2013, 11:54 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

zer0netgain wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Why can't you just make corrections on the ACA to make it better? Why throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Obamacare will destroy healthcare in America, do you subscribe to the line of thinking that if I can't have it then no one else should? Is that the type of "equality" you want? Nothing is stopping your state from expanding Medicaid or enacting healthcare reform on their own, many states have. Vermont is planning a single-payer system believe it or not.

ArrantPariah
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01 Nov 2013, 11:59 am

Dox47 wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

No, most libertarians these days are pseudo-intellectual, amoral, Randian fools.

:lol:

100% of people who say things like this are complete as*holes, look it up it's a fact.
:lol:

Ad hominem. Dox is going to get a spanking.

hanyo
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01 Nov 2013, 12:01 pm

Jacoby wrote:

Obamacare will destroy healthcare in America, do you subscribe to the line of thinking that if I can't have it then no one else should?

No, their line of thinking isn't that no one should have it, it's that everyone should have it.

ArrantPariah
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01 Nov 2013, 12:04 pm

Jacoby wrote:

Obamacare will destroy healthcare in America,

Such pessimism. :shameonyou:

Such lack of patriotism. :shameonyou:

Such hyperbole. :shameonyou:

Such contempt for the nation. :shameonyou:

adb
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01 Nov 2013, 12:09 pm

sonofghandi wrote:

At the same time, the wealth that you produce would be significantly less if tens of millions of people were suddenly without that money.

But would that amount be enough less to overcome what I have to pay in taxes to support that redistribution?

Quote:

USDA research shows that each $5 of federal SNAP/Food Stamp benefits generates nearly twice that in economic activity.

A study by Moody's found that increasing food assistance is the fastest and most effective way to increase economic activity.

This is a value question, though. You may feel that unfair treatment under the law is justified by an increase in economic activity. I don't feel that way. I'll gladly contribute (and I do) to help people when it's voluntary. I don't like being forced to do so, even if it may have a result that's in my best interest.

Nature isn't fair, but law should be.

AspE
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01 Nov 2013, 12:12 pm

Jacoby wrote:

You can't break something that's already broken.

ArrantPariah
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01 Nov 2013, 12:16 pm

Jacoby wrote:

Obamacare will destroy healthcare in America,

A few people getting health insurance, who couldn't previously afford it, "will destroy healthcare in America?' :roll:

Improvements in the standards of what health insurers must provide, and not allowing insurers to deny payment for pre-existing conditions, "will destroy healthcare in America?" :roll:

Stop reading those Libertarian tracts already. :roll:

Jacoby
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01 Nov 2013, 12:17 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:

Jacoby wrote:

Obamacare will destroy healthcare in America,

Such pessimism. :shameonyou:

Such lack of patriotism. :shameonyou:

Such hyperbole. :shameonyou:

Such contempt for the nation. :shameonyou:

In the grand scheme my opinion means nothing, the law will speak for itself. It already is. The question is, will you accept reality when the time comes or will you go down with the ship?

ArrantPariah
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01 Nov 2013, 12:17 pm

adb wrote:

Nature isn't fair, but law should be.

And, Obamacare is about as fair as we're going to get right now.

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