Dreams

Page 4 of 5 [ 68 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

13 Jul 2009, 12:01 pm

Magnus wrote:

Psychology isn't a hard science because emotions and experiences are subjective to the person. Psychoanalysis gets into the mind of the individual.
We are not machines. Freud's theories may be dated is some respects, but I think he was right at the time. The Victorian people of England are different than modern Americans. This doesn't make his theories any less true. We are better off expanding on his approach rather than dismissing it.

If Freud was so wrong, then why did the US government employ him as well as Edward Bernays to learn about human behavior? Why did the Nazi scientists use his knowledge to learn how to control the masses? Are all of these elites just dumb and new agey? I don't think so. Even if they were just silly for attempting their psychological experiments, the fact is that they worked. Propaganda is a very useful tool. It works on the subconscious level. There is no proof that the subconscious mind even exists, but I think we all have experienced it. It's not a tangible thing, the psyche. But I don't think it is wise to say that it doesn't exist at all based on the fact that you can't dissect it and look at it under a microscope.

If dreams are all just silly rubbish, then why do we have to dream? Why is it that when we are not allowed to reach the REM state it affects our memory, learning abilities, behavior, etc?

Like it or not, we are machines, and emotional responses can be followed in scientific observations of the living mind.

claire-333
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 53
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,658

13 Jul 2009, 5:16 pm

Sand wrote:

Like it or not, we are machines, and emotional responses can be followed in scientific observations of the living mind.

Ahh...yes, and also in scientific observations of behavior. I think experimental psychology is quite the amazing thing.

MrLoony
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,298
Location: Nevada (not Vegas)

14 Jul 2009, 1:41 pm

Believe it or not, human beings are incredibly predictable. You can always logically deduce a person's actions if you know them well enough. Psychology doesn't seek to claim that everyone will have x reaction to y stimulus. Rather, it says that z person will have x reaction to y stimulus.

But psychology is blind to its own faults, and, as I have said before, one of them is hubris. The idea that people, without modern psychology degrees, could have possibly come up with something as yet undiscovered is patently absurd. Unfortunately, it's also possible, even likely. How many psychologists are there in the world? How many people are not psychologists, but theorize about human nature and the way the mind works on a daily basis? You'll find that the second outnumbers the first on an extraordinary scale. The idea that those billions could not possibly come up with a workable idea is a denial of reality. The law of averages says that this idea that psychologists have is impossible.

Dream interpretation is entirely possible, but psychologists refuse to examine its possibilities. As such, psychology is incomplete. Until psychologists open themselves to ideas from external sources, they can never come to full knowledge of how the human mind works.

_________________
"Let reason be your only sovereign." ~Wizard's Sixth Rule
I'm working my way up to Attending Crazy Taoist. For now, just call me Dr. Crazy Taoist.

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

14 Jul 2009, 4:51 pm

Sand wrote:

Like it or not, we are machines, and emotional responses can be followed in scientific observations of the living mind.

Sure enough. We are machines whose laws of operation we do not fully grasp. The our biology is not trivially reducible to the laws of physics nor is the operation of our brains trivially reducible to physical laws. The complexity of our makeup introduces system laws (through a process of emergence) which we do not yet fully grasp.

At our current level of physics and technology we cannot make an artificial bacterium, although we are close to making artificial viruses (danger! danger!). The proof our our understanding is manifested by our ability to make life like things from scratch. We are not very good at it.

ruveyn

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

14 Jul 2009, 7:26 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Sand wrote:

Like it or not, we are machines, and emotional responses can be followed in scientific observations of the living mind.

Yet.

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

15 Jul 2009, 10:34 am

ruveyn wrote:

At our current level of physics and technology we cannot make an artificial bacterium, although we are close to making artificial viruses (danger! danger!). The proof our our understanding is manifested by our ability to make life like things from scratch. We are not very good at it.

Craig Venter is working feverishly at trying to create the first artificial bacterium. He hopes to have it sometime this year.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Jul 2009, 11:34 am

Orwell wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Craig Venter is working feverishly at trying to create the first artificial bacterium. He hopes to have it sometime this year.

I hope it is harmless. Danger! Danger!

ruveyn

Sand
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 98
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

15 Jul 2009, 12:32 pm

ruveyn wrote:

Orwell wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Craig Venter is working feverishly at trying to create the first artificial bacterium. He hopes to have it sometime this year.

I hope it is harmless. Danger! Danger!

ruveyn

It may be harmless but the process is obviously of military interest. The idiots in control no doubt will create disasters in the long run.

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

16 Jul 2009, 12:45 am

Sand wrote:

It may be harmless but the process is obviously of military interest. The idiots in control no doubt will create disasters in the long run.

Venter's declared aims involve "replacing the entire petro-chemical industry." He's hoping to harness the metabolic pathways of hybrid and/or artificial microbes to produce fuel and solve all the world's energy problems. A noble enough goal, it would seem. Whether the goal is realistic is another matter... his "artificial" chromosome is mostly plagiarized from preexisting lifeforms, so it would probably be more accurate to describe any bacteria he makes as recombinant rather than synthetic, and recombinant bacteria are nothing new.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

ToadOfSteel
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,157
Location: New Jersey

16 Jul 2009, 12:49 am

MrLoony wrote:

A crash of drums, a flash of light!
My golden coat flew out of sight
Colors faded into darkness
I was left alone

I did that show once... it was probably the shortest (or at least, the fastest in pace) of any musical I've ever done...

Magnus
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,372
Location: Claremont, California

16 Jul 2009, 10:36 am

In biology there is usually a cause and effect. Our bodies usually have a reason for their functions.
How many arbitrary functions does the body carry out on a daily basis? If dreaming is of non-importance, then why do our brains carry out this unnecessary process every night?

_________________
As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower living beings he will never know health or peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other.

-Pythagoras

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

16 Jul 2009, 12:06 pm

Magnus wrote:

Surely dreaming either has some purpose, or is a secondary result of some process that does have purpose. That doesn't mean we can learn anything useful through dream interpretation.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

Magnus
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,372
Location: Claremont, California

16 Jul 2009, 2:20 pm

Orwell wrote:

Magnus wrote:

Surely dreaming either has some purpose, or is a secondary result of some process that does have purpose. That doesn't mean we can learn anything useful through dream interpretation.

It doesn't mean we could learn anything useful through dream/vision interpretation?

Let's say ruveyn is right and that dreams are just mental flatulence. If a person is particularly gassy, then that may cause the person to reflect as to what may have upset his/her stomach. If this person ignores the fact that he/she is farting up a storm and sharting bacon strips while continuously eating and all the while being oblivious to his/her gassy state, this person is not only doing himself a disservice but he is also doing a disservice to everyone he encounters. Would you think that it would benefit the person to:

1.) be aware that he/she is flatulating
2.) reflect on his/her eating habits
3.) learn what to do to prevent an upset stomach
4.) take action by adopting a different diet and perhaps take some papaya and pineapple enzymes as well as some probiotics

Or, do you think it is more reasonable to just ignore the flatulence altogether?

Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,518
Location: Room 101

16 Jul 2009, 3:59 pm

I'm not sure I follow your analogy.

_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

16 Jul 2009, 4:03 pm

Orwell wrote:

Surely dreaming either has some purpose, or is a secondary result of some process that does have purpose. That doesn't mean we can learn anything useful through dream interpretation.

Just because something happens does not means it has a purpose. That is the way Aristotle thought of things. He believed in Final Causation. He believed there were Ends toward which things went.

Aristotle was wrong about nearly everything pertaining to the physical world.

ruveyn

monty
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Sep 2007
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,741

16 Jul 2009, 5:03 pm

ruveyn wrote:

True - and to determine if it has a purpose, we might stop theoretical discussion and return to an empirical approach. What happens when people are prevented from going into REM sleep (dreaming)? ... bad things happen to the mind and body! When a person is deprived of sleep, or deprived specifically of REM sleep, they go into REM much quicker (sometimes immediately on falling asleep). Long term sleep deprivation can kill or dramatically shorten the lives of lab animals. People turn psychotic without sleep.

Ergo, dreaming does have a purpose related to maintaining health. Much remains to be answered about the how and why of it, but there is no doubt that dreams and other sleep states do have a purpose.

Page 4 of 5 [ 68 posts ] Go to page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Next

Jump to:

Dreams Post Reply New Topic

Dreams