Are Bush Protestors Morally Equivalent to Obama Protestors

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I agree, but I'm thinking it might be whose means of protest are worse. Considering neither sides protest tactics don't involve anything super extreme, I'll focus on the ends...I think skafather84 sums it up really well.

I know the religious right and neo-cons in canada will complain about liberal persecution...when almost all of their objectives involve some form of persecution.....denying women reproductive choice, denying gays the right to marry, supporting draconian prison sentences and super strict drug policies.

...so yes, the right wing are bigger as*holes...plus they call themselves "tea-baggers".

as*hole size, I presume, indicates the volume of crap dispensed.

Persecution by granting more liberty to others.

"War is Peace; Freedom is Slavery; Ignorance is Strength"

What are you trying to say with "morally equivalent"?

Is deciding people's choices for them moral? Is looting from some citizens in the form of taxes and giving to others morally equivalent?

Is advocating equal care and special privileges for illegals (those who broke our law) while denying others the same access or care because of race quotas morally equivalent?



I never voted for Bush but I have voted libertarian. The opposition to big government is much broader than Bush voters and it includes former Democrats like myself, libertarians and independents. Democrats have always been led by "astroturf" groups that organize protests like ACLU, ACORN and others. Acorn is a fine example of tax money wasted. The US doesn't have it's own money; it loots it from the citizens who are then forced to watch their tax money being wasted on waste and fraud programs like ACORN.

It does seem disproportionate now, but people have finally awakened to the truth about how much waste there is in our overgrown government. Our representatives have been pandering to special interest social groups and corporatist panderers and unfortunately for Obama, the finally woke up to smell the rats in office.


Check out RonPaulforums.com

He is in Congress as a Republican but he is far from anything like Bush. He and other libertarian republicans would like to move all the old Republicans out of office and replace them with real supporters of the people for smaller government. For one thing they are against protecting big business to the detriment of small businesses and individuals.


http://www.kokeshforcongress.com/adam-issues
http://www.randpaul2010.com/ (RP's son)
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/

Wiretapping who? Like the guy recently caught buying bomb making materials?

Torturing who? Like torturing religious fanatic terrorists who killed 5000 or more innocent people in one day?

How do you think any culture of the past that was at a chiefdom level population or above managed to keep their people safe and learn more about their enemies?

I am not a hardcore Bush voter and never voted for him as I vote libertarian, but all this kool aid talk with no context and little respect for the real facts and objectivity or historical reality is maddening.

Everybody. The calls are scanned and certain key words trip up the system to trace and record. Just because they give you a poster-worthy example doesn't mean they're the only ones who are being tapped. Your privacy has already been invaded and you're just laying down and taking it. Like a crackwhore who need their next fix.





Their torture methods induce brain damage and can result in many false results and people confessing to actions they didn't actually partake in but because they've been asked repeatedly about it, it's been ingrained in their head until they basically hallucinate and imagine they actually have done it. This is from a study that came out last week on the effects of torture, particularly the slamming of heads into walls and water-boarding.

It's useless if all you get is false information. The bad part is because it's so atrocious, they'll never admit to being wrong on it. There's a reason why there's supposed to be a zero-tolerance policy on torturing...because there's no winning with it, there's only severe social and political losses.

Social ones being the not-so-bright like yourself thinking that torture is acceptable and thereby devaluing life.



I know how they did it in the past and that time has long gone. Culture changes and technology changes. Quit harking back to the bad old times.



You are quite the kool-aid drinker to buy into torture. You would have made a great McCarthy acolyte in the 50s.

Besides the conjecture on brain damage and torture, I agree that some methods are better than others. Do you think our G.Is were treated with dignity in the Somalia incident in the 1990s? Torture, modern torture is not designed or intended to cause brain damage? Which torture causes that? Waterboarding?
Where is the proof and the doubleblind studies with operational parameters?
What pundit gave you that information?

If every other country is so "tolerant" and humanitarian why are people routinely kidnapped and beheaded in the Middle East?
Why does our country have the most lenient immigration policy? Show me one in Europe or East Asia that is more lenient.


I can agree with you on the wiretapping, but I do not believe that they have the manpower to monitor everyone 24/7. I'm not a big fan of it but if you read what the law states, there has to be "just cause" (like buying materials used in high power terrorist explosives). I can live with that as long as it is reserved to real justified profile worthy situations where someone is obviously doing things that are suspect. If I saw someone in their backyard playing with stuff that resembled agent orange, I have a vested interest in my property and my neighbors to report it.


On torture.... Did you ever consider that fetuses can feel pain after the first trimester but this same president who supports banning torture and probably the death penalty supports late term abortions.

I never understood how one life (death penalty victim) is more precious than another (unborn baby human).

Yes and No. Empathy is not my strong point. Neither is compassion. Partly because I am an Aspie and partly because I make a conscious decision to suppress my compassion and pity however weak they might be naturally. I save compassion and pity for my family. For the rest of the world I do justice and have good manners.

And yes, my first point of focus and attention is THE FACTS. I am FACT oriented. A priori convictions have little place in my thinking. In fact, the only a priori I hold is the law of non-contradiction. Everything else is contingent and empirically based.

ruveyn

I'm stopping this here because you're dismissing facts in favor of preserving your own opinions. You'll devolve the discussion into a bratty tit-for-tat style argument bringing up examples of how others have treated US troops badly so therefore we should go down morally to their level.

You're wrong. You're a degenerate and your opinions have a degenerative effect on society.

Ohanrahan, I must say that you do sound rather misinformed and you seem to prefer bias over logic. You speak about government waste, but ignore the fact that even more waste exists in the private sector. The overhead for private insurance companies is about 30% and the overhead for medicare and medicaid is around 3%. You defend the idea of torturing a human being, but show concern over the possibility of pain sensations in a fetus. You've also ignored our latest victory in spoiling a significant terrorist plot without the use of torture.

Curious ideas, to say the least.

QFT. We should never use the atrocities of our enemies as a justification for sinking down to their level.

I agree. There are much better reasons to do. In fact we should not only sink to their level but go even lower. That way we can attack them from below.

ruveyn

I am misinformed?

The income tax is taken by force. Is that misinformed?
Is being silenced because you are not politically correct misinformed?

I simply argue the right of anyone to say what they will and now that liberty lovers are protesting about their invasion of choice, all of the sudden the conformist, collectivist, statists are in an uproar.

I was against Bush over the growth or government and I am also against the democrats now. Appointing "czars" is unconstitutional. We have elected representatives like Congressmen (excuse me, congresspersons) and Senators. We don't need additional representatives.

There were no guns at the rallies. Someone held a sign saying that "this time we came unarmed" but that was it.
And if they did so what? As long as they have a concealed and carry permit, they are within their rights.

Torture as a means to get information has been a historic reality for ages. Is that misinformed? I'm not for torturing anyone willy nilly, but if my son were kidnapped and I captured someone who was involved in the plot, I would use any means necessary to get information on my son. If a parent isn't willing to do whatever is necessary to protect their child from dire danger or death, then that parent is not worthy of being a parent.

And btw, the terrorist recently captured was done so as a result of FBI tracking and tapping.
The pirates in Somalia were not stopped until they were stopped by force; i.e. someone was shot.
It sucks, but every now and then dirty work must be done.

On the fetus. It is a human being like it or not. Half of it's chromosomes come from the father; does the father get a say?
Does the fetus that can hear and feel have any say over it's own DNA? The genetic material is not the mother's. If the mother is pregnant already, it is no longer a question of "reproductive rights". She has already reproduced.
If someone was raped, they can intercept implantation before it occurs.

I'm not really for the death penalty either as there are more useful ways to have someone repay their moral debts.


Where did you get your numbers on Medicare? I would love to see the non-biased source so I can be more informed.


The Democrat party loves liberty? Wow. I thought they loved thought control and word control and big government support.

Hitler would love your ideas.

So would Andrew Jackson and George Patton.

You invoked Hitler! You lose!

ruveyn

Andrew Jackson tortured? George Patton tortured?