I have a question for only Christian aspies

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mgran
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31 Jan 2010, 7:38 pm

iquanyin wrote:
i've never understood why god doesn't do his own work.

You didn't hear about the crucifixion? Christian doctrine has always been based around the idea that Christ did everything on the cross. You mightn't agree with that, or understand it... but you have to accept that Christians believe with Christ completed everything on the cross. "It is done."



aspiegirl2
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31 Jan 2010, 11:50 pm

Lately in my walk with God I've been feeling emotionally cold. I sometimes don't "feel" anything as I once did when I first went to church or was first praying to God. The vast majority of the time, people of all walks of life will or have experienced something like that before. I've found that it's an important thing to learn that God is there despite if we "feel" him or not, or if we are or we're not with others. Sometimes it's just what we've received in life. We're all different parts with different uses, being used at different times. Not everyone is going to be exactly like a Billy Graham or Paul the Apostle or whichever well-known Christian. It's important to know that we effect people in different ways, even in the minute things that we do, even things that we won't ever remember later. Someone else may remember them. The important thing to do is to be ready to do what is right when the time comes, even when no one is looking. God honors that we do the right things even when no one is looking behind our backs. Do the best you can with what you have. God may not have given you extreme social capabilities, but there has to be more to you than just not having social capabilities. Look at what you are good at, and thank God for what you do have, using it to the best capability to serve him. Sometimes that's all that you can do. There's also the classic saying: As long as you're still alive and living on this Earth, you still have a purpose to live out.


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Autumnphoenix
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31 Mar 2010, 1:53 am

Sorry for bumping an old thread, but this is a great thread and this is a topic that I've been wanting to talk about but don't have people to talk about it with.

Also, to those who are unable to sympathize with people who have religious beliefs: This is a thread for people to get support, and not to argue. For people like us the talk about emotions and religious beliefs can be a vulnerable point, so if you don't have supportive and constructive things to say, kindly move on to one of those other threads that are more debate-oriented.

musicboxforever wrote:
Awh, I totaly relate to this. I wanted to be a missionary, but slowly as I grew up I realised that I couldn't relate to "regular" people and I have no concept of what issues affect them and I am in no way capable of "helping" people in that sort of way. Although I do like a good old philosophical debate. But I cannot translate the religious into a practical level for people to benefit from. Does that make any sense?

I've thought a lot about it too, and I've been to retreats and stuff and visited missionaries and researched about becoming one. However, I was constantly frustrated because whenever I tried to explain my beliefs and my view on community living or helping people, it always came out wrong. I've read books written by missionaries and I just couldn't relate at all.

In fact, the whole relating problem has been my cross to bear in all those years of Sunday School and Bible studies and youth groups and such. I have an immutable faith in God and everything taught by the Church made sense to me. However, the ways in which things "make sense" to me are completely incomprehensible to other people, and when other people talk about their emotional experiences or using emotional experiences as analogies, I cringe inside.

I remember one time when I was 10 or so, when the religion class teacher was teaching us about calling God's/Jesus' name as an act of love. I guess the point was that you'd say the name of someone you love, and you would feel good when someone you love says your name. She asked me if I liked having people say my name, and my answer was, "No. I hate it when I hear my name, because it either means I'm in trouble, or someone wants to talk to me, but I don't want to talk." :? So you can imagine how hard it was for me to sit through religion class. It's a miracle that I persisted so long in believing.

I can't deal with personal relationships. Even though I love my parents dearly, I am unable to express my love for them, and it really irritates me. I know I'm in some kind of relationship with God, but the whole notion of developing a personal relationship weirds the crap out of me. I'm sure that's just NT talk for something that transcends human relationships and experiences, but not being NT the same words have a very negative connotation for me. All that symbolism and terminology and tradition about intimacy, touching, being together, spontaneous expressions of joy, etc---none of that works for me. It's almost like I need a whole different set of vocabulary to get at the same concepts, and it's been impossible for me to connect with a spiritual mentor, priest, saint etc. (I wonder if there are any Aspie saints in the Catholic tradition?) The language of religion is not only incomprehensible to me, but grates on my nerves as well.

I really want to believe. I choose to believe. I want to delve deeper in my faith. However, before my eyes there is just a fog of words that I'm not comfortable with, explanations that don't make sense to me, people that I can't connect with. It's so frustrating. Why can't there be an "Aspie's Guide to Religion" or an "Aspie Approach to Christianity" or something like that? Why must I have NT language thrown and me constantly and be told that I'm on the wrong track?

By the way, I was talking to an Evangelical friend a few days ago and she was saying how her parents were Catholic and she couldn't really get anything out of a Catholic Mass. For me, I'm really glad I grew up Catholic because I don't think I could function in an Evangelical service. I like how the Mass is really focused on God rather than the individual participants or even the priest, and the routine is comforting. I know some people find it hard to make an emotional connection to the Mass, but for me, the structure and routine and even the more monotonic chant-y parts (not a big fan of the contemporary music services) are very conducive to my focusing and maintaining a prayerful presence. It's also great that I'm not obliged to interact with other people, unless I really want to (before or after Mass). If I have to witness in front of an NT crowd, I might as well... I don't know, self-flagellate or something. I've had enough of people telling me that my Aspie way of talking about faith not making sense.



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31 Mar 2010, 3:23 am

The main problem I have is that whenever I go to church people seem to want to de-Aspie me. It seems as though being Aspergers is not acceptable. If I'm not accepted within the religion, then it is very difficult.
I'm not sure about God. I want to believe in him and follow him despite the church, but I find it very difficult to be rejected by Christians and not feel that it is a rejection from him.


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31 Mar 2010, 4:26 am

Alycat wrote:
I'm not sure about God. I want to believe in him and follow him despite the church, but I find it very difficult to be rejected by Christians and not feel that it is a rejection from him.


People can really be horrible sometimes, but their actions reflect only their character.



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31 Mar 2010, 12:12 pm

Just found this thread and would love to respond to others' comments, but I think I'll just stick with the original question!

My problem as an aspie is that I've always taken to heart what teachers/friends have said and always try to objectify EVERYTHING, God included.

I've never abandoned my faith, although I fear I've compromised it at times to make God fit in the objective scientific box. God, of course, is too big for that. Previously I'd been a strong supporter for ideas such as evolution as it could possibly relate to the Bible, i.e. the Bible doesn't necessarily disqualify evolution as one possibility through which God created the universe. Over time I gradually weaned myself from that way of thinking and toyed briefly with the idea of intelligent design. I also carefully studied sources that advocated that theory, which I have also since rejected.

NOW, though, I've come to believe the creation story in Genesis as the proper answer to the origin question. I believe that, or even MAKE myself believe it because it is a God-centered and Biblical explanation that supports the power of God to create the universe through supernatural and miraculous means. A God with that kind of ability is worthy of faith, wouldn't you think? I'm still not sure about young Earth/old Earth because there's no truly reliable way of gauging time in the OT. Perhaps the Earth was created 4000 B.C., perhaps much longer ago than that. I guess some questions just have to wait for the "other side."

The problem for me, as you can see, is trying to reconcile Christian tenets with scientific observation when so much about the works of God and Jesus have supernatural elements that defy scientific explanation. If my brain gives me a lot of trouble over it, my heart reminds me that science is humankind's observations of and attempts to explain nature. If science were entirely "wrong," it couldn't yield the positive results that it has. The field of medicine, for instance, abounds in theories and observations. Ergo a doctor can have a thorough knowledge of the human body and prescribe treatment solutions for many illnesses. Bacterial and viral infections such as boils due to staph and the common cold would have been deadly in ancient times. On the one hand, it might appear that our ability to treat illness or perform surgery is based on skills and knowledge that we've accumulated for ourselves. But on the other hand, we can rest in the faith that all such healing knowledge comes from God, EVEN IF THE PRACTITIONER IS AN UNBELIEVER, because it is God who allows these kinds of things to become known.

And even though I firmly believe those things, I still find myself looking for worldly explanations almost as a habit or an echo of everything I've been taught in school.

I also feel something like an emotional disconnect from God. I think part of me is looking for that "religious experience" and that dopamine rush from constant worship. I take comfort in the fact that faith alone is all that God requires of me, even if I'm not "feeling it." I've also found that maintaining that "high" is like hanging on to a gold-digger girlfriend (had one). As long as the level of excitement and interest is up, up, up and money is being spent, she'll stick around. But let her get bored ONE TIME and she's gone. Keeping emotions high is exhausting, and I've learned that God doesn't do or require that. All that stuff in the NT about the work of the Holy Spirit--again, I don't "feel it." It's when I do or say things that I can't explain that I realize what was said was not a work of my heart or my intellect, but the Spirit of God acting through me--something promised after Jesus' earthly ministry to all believers.

I also used to have a lot of trouble reading the Bible. I just wouldn't do it, except maybe just the cool parts like Genesis, Revelation, and the Gospels, all of which I've read obsessively throughout my life. I discovered a VERY nice study Bible which has greatly helped me build a stronger faith. This one picks almost the entire Bible apart, even verse-by-verse in some places, and points out differences in various historical translations. The point of this is to demonstrate what some believe to be errors, inconsistencies, or even contradictions in the Bible, and it even sheds some light into the original context. The "errors" are mostly related to scribal errors as the books were copied and recopied from generation to generation and have to do more with grammar than disputing facts. For example, a passage might say "7,000 were killed at the battle of ____" when it's more likely that closer to 700 is more accurate. Also, different passages refer to the same person but give him a different name--explainable by the fact most people are traditionally given two different names, are referred to by their father's/grandfather's name, or by a nickname that was a common affectionate term at the time of writing. Articles that shed light on various Biblical practices as compared to present-day practices and even on how certain passages are taken out of context, misquoted, or misused are also helpful (my favorite misquote: "Judge not that you be judged." Clearly Biblical authors intended Godly discernment, and this passage is a warning to hypocrites--it's like just assuming someone is a piece of crap just because their house is falling down and they have junk in their yard, you just don't do that to someone, especially if you don't know them. We have every right to judge wrongdoing of others and to correct each other). Ever since I got that particular translation, and it's NOT in King James English, I haven't been able to put it down, even with all the genealogies, the OT laws, the sermons of Moses, etc. which are really tough reading with all the thees and thous and begats and so on.

Any kind of good reading material like that which helps promote your own understanding of Biblical concepts will make it much easier to believe, follow, and implement in your own life. I think with aspies who might get entangled in all the details or fall through the emotional gaps, things like that are essential for an effective Christian life. Putting Biblical precepts into practice and sticking by then every day will go a long way towards confirming and strengthening your faith. I think it's very difficult for a lot of us to simply live by faith alone because of the way our brains are wired. Jesus said "It will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man to enter heaven." But he also said, "With men, these things are impossible. With God, ALL things are possible" (emphasis mine). I take this to mean that if it is possible (in God) for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, it is possible for a rich man to enter heaven, and therefore it is also possible for us to build our faith. There never was a strong faith that was easy. But just because some things for us will be difficult, they are not impossible.

As for prayer: I firmly believe God still answers prayers. I never feel like I hear another voice inside my head revealing all the secrets of the universe, but I CERTAINLY feel that God has a way of leading me in the direction He wants me to go. I lead my family with that same conviction. My wife once took a very upscale job only to be terminated a year later due to some horribly unfortunate circumstances. She took a job with a previous employer but soon began thinking about other job offers. I told her that I felt and firmly believed she should stay put if for no other reason than to demonstrate her loyalty (and make her more hirable elsewhere). She eventually earned a raise in salary, an opportunity she'd never have had if she'd kept job-hopping. All this happened after much prayer that she'd get some indication that now is not the time to leave this area and start completely over somewhere else! I think God has made it very difficult for us to leave, and that has only strengthened our faith in His power and ability to answer prayers.

I don't know how much help this is, but I do hope that I can be an encouragement for someone out there, especially like the original poster. I think it's harder to hold on to faith because of our particular wiring. I, for one, face excruciating depression and have often felt (whether it was really the case or not) that I had nothing left EXCEPT my faith. If not for that and certain abilities I've been blessed with, I might have just put myself out of the rest of the world's misery a long time ago!

To those who do steadfastly believe, keep hanging in there!



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31 Mar 2010, 12:41 pm

Alycat wrote:
The main problem I have is that whenever I go to church people seem to want to de-Aspie me. It seems as though being Aspergers is not acceptable. If I'm not accepted within the religion, then it is very difficult.
I'm not sure about God. I want to believe in him and follow him despite the church, but I find it very difficult to be rejected by Christians and not feel that it is a rejection from him.


OK, so I just wrote this HUGE post--darnit, I did it again! But I did want to respond to this.

I know exactly what you mean, except I also feel the same way about other people that have come and gone in my life. What I realized is that people don't really KNOW me, and I don't know how to open up other than just one-on-one conversation. Even that only happens by pure chance, and even then there's no guarantee than anyone actually even CARES!

Church for me has never been any different, but maybe me situation is a lot different from yours. I've been active in church music most of my life and do now play professionally in church. I have absolutely ZERO personality, so people who only meet me briefly typically don't like me very much. It's not that I haven't tried to be more upbeat, it's just that I lack that kind of ability--I end up looking like the village idiot or a complete fake, sometimes both.

But put me behind the piano and I really DO have the ability to communicate to the hearts and minds of people in ways which defy personality and words. Get me as a musician and you get the REAL package. I can be myself and people LOVE it. I get complements all the time on my playing, not all of it deserved. But as long as I've been a musician in a church, I've always been accepted. No one tries to de-aspie me then. But off the bench, I go back to being the shy, soft-spoken introvert that I am the rest of the time.

What you'll find is in every church, there are others that are shy and anti-social and are there for worship and limited social engagement. No matter what we do about it, churches always have small cliques or factions within them. While this can be a bad, divisive thing within a congregation, it also serves to help people feel included. Those are the kinds of things to look for.

I also look at AS as a gift. My experience has always been that I'll get along either with much older people or much younger people. I'm getting VERY good at interacting with small children. You might find because of your AS traits you have a certain amount of influence over specific groups of people. If you can manage to get past a lot of your own social stigma, you might find you have an as-yet undiscovered talent for, say, teaching Sunday School or keeping kids in the nursery before or during the worship service. There are all kinds of ways you can not just be ministered to in a church, but also be an active part of the ministry itself.

That all varies from denomination to denomination and from church to church, of course. But figuring out different ways to relate to people in a Christian setting will go a long way to their acceptance of you, which is what they're supposed to do, anyway.

From my own experience, I've visited churches before that had a very cold, stiff atmosphere among the congregation. It wasn't that they were bad people. It was just the culture of one particular congregation. I suspect that if I'd attended that church long enough, it could have grown on me. Except for one really ugly incident last year (basically one or two people trying to run my family out of church and out of town and threatening to take away our children--a very silly and shameful thing), we've always been very happy with where we are. I think sometimes you have to accept a congregation before they can begin to even think about accepting you, and it takes a lot of tenacity. If one church is incompatible with you, try going to a different church. It has always been the best support system I and my family have ever had.



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31 Mar 2010, 12:49 pm

Autumnphoenix wrote:
Sorry for bumping an old thread, but this is a great thread and this is a topic that I've been wanting to talk about but don't have people to talk about it with.

Also, to those who are unable to sympathize with people who have religious beliefs: This is a thread for people to get support, and not to argue. For people like us the talk about emotions and religious beliefs can be a vulnerable point, so if you don't have supportive and constructive things to say, kindly move on to one of those other threads that are more debate-oriented.

musicboxforever wrote:
Awh, I totaly relate to this. I wanted to be a missionary, but slowly as I grew up I realised that I couldn't relate to "regular" people and I have no concept of what issues affect them and I am in no way capable of "helping" people in that sort of way. Although I do like a good old philosophical debate. But I cannot translate the religious into a practical level for people to benefit from. Does that make any sense?

I've thought a lot about it too, and I've been to retreats and stuff and visited missionaries and researched about becoming one. However, I was constantly frustrated because whenever I tried to explain my beliefs and my view on community living or helping people, it always came out wrong. I've read books written by missionaries and I just couldn't relate at all.

In fact, the whole relating problem has been my cross to bear in all those years of Sunday School and Bible studies and youth groups and such. I have an immutable faith in God and everything taught by the Church made sense to me. However, the ways in which things "make sense" to me are completely incomprehensible to other people, and when other people talk about their emotional experiences or using emotional experiences as analogies, I cringe inside.

I remember one time when I was 10 or so, when the religion class teacher was teaching us about calling God's/Jesus' name as an act of love. I guess the point was that you'd say the name of someone you love, and you would feel good when someone you love says your name. She asked me if I liked having people say my name, and my answer was, "No. I hate it when I hear my name, because it either means I'm in trouble, or someone wants to talk to me, but I don't want to talk." :? So you can imagine how hard it was for me to sit through religion class. It's a miracle that I persisted so long in believing.

I can't deal with personal relationships. Even though I love my parents dearly, I am unable to express my love for them, and it really irritates me. I know I'm in some kind of relationship with God, but the whole notion of developing a personal relationship weirds the crap out of me. I'm sure that's just NT talk for something that transcends human relationships and experiences, but not being NT the same words have a very negative connotation for me. All that symbolism and terminology and tradition about intimacy, touching, being together, spontaneous expressions of joy, etc---none of that works for me. It's almost like I need a whole different set of vocabulary to get at the same concepts, and it's been impossible for me to connect with a spiritual mentor, priest, saint etc. (I wonder if there are any Aspie saints in the Catholic tradition?) The language of religion is not only incomprehensible to me, but grates on my nerves as well.

I really want to believe. I choose to believe. I want to delve deeper in my faith. However, before my eyes there is just a fog of words that I'm not comfortable with, explanations that don't make sense to me, people that I can't connect with. It's so frustrating. Why can't there be an "Aspie's Guide to Religion" or an "Aspie Approach to Christianity" or something like that? Why must I have NT language thrown and me constantly and be told that I'm on the wrong track?

By the way, I was talking to an Evangelical friend a few days ago and she was saying how her parents were Catholic and she couldn't really get anything out of a Catholic Mass. For me, I'm really glad I grew up Catholic because I don't think I could function in an Evangelical service. I like how the Mass is really focused on God rather than the individual participants or even the priest, and the routine is comforting. I know some people find it hard to make an emotional connection to the Mass, but for me, the structure and routine and even the more monotonic chant-y parts (not a big fan of the contemporary music services) are very conducive to my focusing and maintaining a prayerful presence. It's also great that I'm not obliged to interact with other people, unless I really want to (before or after Mass). If I have to witness in front of an NT crowd, I might as well... I don't know, self-flagellate or something. I've had enough of people telling me that my Aspie way of talking about faith not making sense.


Autumnphoenix, I find your post very interesting. And thank you for the honesty with which you describe your issues.

I don't know how many aspies feel the same about the "personal relationship" thing. But you may not be the only one.
Your post gives me a challenge to think about. How is it possible to describe the relationship to God / Jesus in aspie-friendly terms?
It sounds like a good idea with an Aspie Approach to Christianity... I like that. :)

As for me, I don't feel the same as you about it. But I can see why another aspie would think like that.
I've always loved the thought of God wanting personal relationship with us. Especially because I have had a hard time getting friends (when I was younger), fitting in (mostly in my family) and such.
Then it was really good news to me to learn about Jesus who accepted people of all kinds, also people whom others didn't want to be friends with, or looked down upon in different ways. Imagine a person who is all love and won't reject you, even when others do, and who doesn't judge your being different! :D
Also, God is the one person (or three :wink: ), whom it does never wear me out to be with or talk to. I'm never overwhelmed when I "socialise" with him (if you can use that word), as I can be with people sometimes. He understands me fully - and he is beyond all that is called neurotypical or aspie. :wink: Silence with him is never embarrassing.
As for his talking to me (through his Word in the Bible), I am free to read it and meditate on it in my own pace. He doesn't interrupt me with a long, confusing row of half or whole questions. And towards him, I can never be socially awkward. :D

Autumnphoenix, might it be so that if you sort out all the things that make the thought of personal relationship difficult towards other human beings, the thought of personal relationship with God wouldn't be that difficult?
Or how would you prefer to describe what happens between you and God when you pray and read the Bible? I'm curious to know. (If you've already explained it, pardon my question).

I am thinking about having some lectures some day (maybe within a Danish Christian association for disabled people and their families) about how it is being an aspie and especially being diagnosed lately - and how the Christian faith can be a ressource in the issues we face. I can't speak for all, but I can give my own testimony and would also like to hear other aspies' testimonies.

God bless you. :)



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01 Apr 2010, 12:10 pm

Autumnphoenix:

I can totally relate, also. Here's what I think:

Regarding Catholicism--well, it's THE church. Personally I'm an Evangelical, but a lot of us are going back and re-evaluating the value of certain practices. For example, many of us have found the practice of baptizing babies as offensive based on the fact that (I'm Baptist, btw) it doesn't involve immersion and that babies don't really have the ability to choose. However, one practice that is related to this that is obviously Catholic influenced and does have a Biblical precedent is what my church refers to as "Baby Dedication." In other words, we bring our children before the congregation (our church does this on Mother's Day), read a Bible verse, and promise to raise our children in Christ-centered homes and teach them the Bible, hopefully leading to a saving knowledge of Christ.

The other thing that, to me, is off-putting about Catholic worship is heavy reliance on symbols and ritual. Someone very close to me was raised in a Methodist home, which attempts to capture the ritual of the Catholic mass while fixing some of the "problems." She's an NT, btw. She attended Baptist services with me for a while and eventually elected to join that church and go through baptism. The way she put it was she felt that the Methodist rituals were more only going through the motions of worship and, for HER, very alienating and distant. Baptists, by contrast, have FEW rituals (baptism and communion, also to some degree wedding ceremonies, though even these are flexible) but more emphasis (at least in our church) on actively participating in worship.

Obviously, the use of ritual is a very healthy thing for you. I get a sense that you aren't completely satisfied in your faith because you say there are explanations that don't make sense to you. Lately I've been thinking that much of our religious leaders seem to over-intellectualize matters of Christian faith. The problem of faith is that the foundation of the Christian walk of faith is very simple and can be summarized with only a few Bible passages. The main one that comes to mind is John 3:16. Next to that is the "greatest commandment" when Jesus quoted Moses: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, spirit, and strength." He added as a second commandment "Love your neighbor as yourself." There are, of course, many, MANY details beyond that, but those details have more to do with the proper conduct that naturally follows salvation, not requirements for salvation. Christianity is not some vague convoluted checklist. It's just a very simple belief in one thing, and that is Jesus saves.

How about this: We aspies are unique. Our language and attempts to understand our world is distinctly different from the rest of the world and even sometimes each other. You aren't going to understand how an NT perceives God because you aren't an NT. An NT won't understand how you feel because of incompatible wiring. I think dialogue with other Christian aspies (like what we're already doing here) is your best bet.

Regarding testimony: I personally think that due to the problems some of us have socially, written testimony might be far superior than spoken witness. I'm finding there are a lot of aspies on the rest of the WP forums that are adamantly against anything having to do with organized religion, ESPECIALLY Christianity. Personally, if there are any challenges to the religion or the Bible, I feel the need to speak up. Perhaps the reason why we are here is to witness to people who aren't interested in confronting these issues anywhere else.

I'd love to hear more from you about questions or issues that you have regarding Christianity and Biblical teaching. As much as I'm into the Bible, who knows? You all might teach ME a thing or two!



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01 Apr 2010, 7:07 pm

I usually lurk and don't post on this forum, but there was something about about the posts on the first page which seemed... vile. I don't know what it was, but it creeped me out enough that I decided to post. The way that this character called God was discussed, it made me consider how ensnared in the Christian faith that people are.

I don't intend to offend anybody, though I probably have, but Christianity has always left a bad image in my mind.



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01 Apr 2010, 8:05 pm

Avarice wrote:
I usually lurk and don't post on this forum, but there was something about about the posts on the first page which seemed... vile. I don't know what it was, but it creeped me out enough that I decided to post. The way that this character called God was discussed, it made me consider how ensnared in the Christian faith that people are.

I don't intend to offend anybody, though I probably have, but Christianity has always left a bad image in my mind.


It is inappropriate for non-believers to invade this holy territory where the sharp teeth of logic and good sense could instantly shred the inconsistencies of beliefs sustained by unquestioning minds. This is forbidden country and a playground where only clouded minds may enter. Let them play.



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02 Apr 2010, 10:24 am

Avarice wrote:
I usually lurk and don't post on this forum, but there was something about about the posts on the first page which seemed... vile. I don't know what it was, but it creeped me out enough that I decided to post. The way that this character called God was discussed, it made me consider how ensnared in the Christian faith that people are.

I don't intend to offend anybody, though I probably have, but Christianity has always left a bad image in my mind.


I don't think that anyone would be offended by your saying this. A few believers here have said that they are having certain problems with Christianity, so I think that your comment is valid.

I personally dislike any displays of emotion in my regular life, so I don't like any over the top displays of emotion about God. It upsets me in a way (Upset is the wrong word, creeps me out is the wrong wording for how I feel,) maybe I should say, it makes me feel a bit uncomfortable when people use vauge emotional imagery when talking about God and experiencing his glory etc. I like things to be stated in a very particular non-emotional way. My mother and I have disagreements about this. I find it hard not to roll my eyes at her.

Oddly enough I have somehow managed to make friends with Christians who are quite down to earth and logical. I was explaining something the other day to a friend of mine about whether it is fair for God to let us be tempted by a creature such as a Devil (he has certain aspie traits, I just read that back I mean my friend has aspie traits) and his wee face lit up and he smiled and said that what I just explained was very logical. He is great at explaining things to me in a logical way. He finishes off my thoughts. I have a question and he explains it to me. It's great.



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02 Apr 2010, 10:05 pm

Sand wrote:
Avarice wrote:
I usually lurk and don't post on this forum, but there was something about about the posts on the first page which seemed... vile. I don't know what it was, but it creeped me out enough that I decided to post. The way that this character called God was discussed, it made me consider how ensnared in the Christian faith that people are.

I don't intend to offend anybody, though I probably have, but Christianity has always left a bad image in my mind.


It is inappropriate for non-believers to invade this holy territory where the sharp teeth of logic and good sense could instantly shred the inconsistencies of beliefs sustained by unquestioning minds. This is forbidden country and a playground where only clouded minds may enter. Let them play.


That sounds like a very hypocritical statement to me. Are non-believers really such questioning seekers of truth? If so, why do so many attack Christians and their beliefs? If you are of a mind so inclined to questioning, then you necessarily must inquire into at least the possibility that in what and in whom Christians believe might be true.

You'll notice that my last statement directly references logical thinking. Your statement is reflective of a closed mind (and what the Bible refers to as the "hardened heart"). No reasonably logical person can rightfully say that they know absolutely for certain that there is no God. Something else, not logic and reason, has made up your mind for you.

Inconsistencies of beliefs? Indeed? How is that inferior to unbelievers? Unbelievers have at least as much diversity of thought about a wide range of other beliefs than Christians do about their own single belief. Inconsistency is not a bad thing. It means that Christians are able to experience God in various ways and share those experiences. It also means that we are open to debate about issues of faith and that we seek to get closer to God by examining the Bible as well as the writings of other Christian thinkers. In the secular world, by comparison, there is even debate regarding global warming--oh, excuse me, they're calling it "climate change" now, with one prominent political figure touting scientific findings that suggest that the polar ice caps will be gone in 5 years (maybe 4 or 3 by now). Isn't it funny how Christian groups in the past have made errant doomsday claims, and yet now it's the secular world of science, logic, and reasoning that's predicting doomsday in environmental and astronomical terms; and it's all gonna happen any day now! And WE'RE being called irrational?

Paranoia is a universal human trait. Let neither Christians nor unbelievers be hypocrites.

Now, to address Christian inconsistencies: First, we all must agree that no one is perfect and guiltless. This fact applies to believers and unbelievers alike. Even the Bible says so. Because Christians are imperfect people (just like everyone else), they do not all know and understand the Bible. Neither do they always seek God's will or counsel. They do not always listen to or wait for answers to their prayers. They do not always know or understand the commandments of the OT or the new commandments of Jesus. This applies especially to new converts and those of limited education or intellect. They are simple, single-minded people that are therefore prone to making quick judgments of other sinners and are easily cut with the "sharp teeth" of an unbeliever's secular logic and reason. They are prone to ill behaviors that bely the true meaning of Christian life.

That does not mean they are evil people. It just means they do not yet have the same walk of faith as those of us who have been believers for a long time and have taken the time to study and question Christian and Biblical precepts. Their views grow and change as they begin to understand and practice their faith. We aren't perfect. We just do the best we can and pray that God will help us become better representatives of Him and His body of believers.

Are there evil people who falsely represent Christian doctrine? Absolutely, and they have MANY followers. I am personally highly suspect of TV evangelists and their claims of "healing." "Prosperity Gospel," which has fallen in and out of vogue among their followers is a horrible twist on Christian teaching that only seems to rob congregations of their money and make their pastors richer. I won't name any names in the forum, but you can check out this disturbing (or you may find it funny, I don't know) video to see EXACTLY what I'm writing about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lvU-DislkI Even Joel Osteen, who seems harmless enough, WAFFLED on his own message when confronted by Larry King! Even Jesus revealed that there would be anti-Christs after him, and warned of the dangers of false teachings. Even in the first few centuries of the faith, Gnosticism, in which the faithful must attain a certain body of mystical knowledge, arose, was examined, and eventually found as contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Arianism is another example of false teaching. Closer to our time, we have Biblical prophecy creatively treated to justify the Manson "Family" murders. David Koresh led his flock down a fiery, self-destructive path.

Therefore, unbelievers who seek to question tenets of Christian faith need to save their questions for those who do have the experience and spiritual maturity to confidently and competently answer those questions. If you insist on picking on and laughing at less mature or less intellectual Christians, try simply asking them how they've experienced God in their own lives. They don't understand the Bible yet, but they do understand the comfort and peace that comes through salvation and forgiveness. You may find it irrational and laughable, but it is very REAL to us. But don't categorize ALL Christians as those ignorant (they don't know/understand, but they aren't stupid), blind followers of false teachers and prophets (yes, they even claim to know the future) who promise wealth and physical healing that never comes. Christianity isn't about any of those superficial things that some are misled to believe.

Seriously, if there is anything you take issue with, I'll be happy to address it. I personally would rather get my information straight from the Bible and reputable, reliable Christian writers who know their stuff. Maybe it's just due to the AS, but I'll even research supporting passages for my own pastor's sermons if they sound the least bit inconsistent. I'll even listen to some of the more charismatic radio ministers to see if I can point out things that are being taken out of context to make a point (these aren't necessarily bad people, but let's just say I don't need the hell scared out of me).



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02 Apr 2010, 10:30 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Even Jesus revealed that there would be anti-Christs after him, and warned of the dangers of false teachings. Even in the first few centuries of the faith, Gnosticism, in which the faithful must attain a certain body of mystical knowledge, arose, was examined, and eventually found as contrary to the teachings of Jesus. Arianism is another example of false teaching. Closer to our time, we have Biblical prophecy creatively treated to justify the Manson "Family" murders. David Koresh led his flock down a fiery, self-destructive path.


You mean they heard what the gnostics believed, saw that it was different from their thoughts, and quickly tortured them and burned them at the stake. Dont paint it so nice as "examined and eventually found contrary". There were no independent examiners and the right to counsel. They locked you up, someone read the charges and a bishop passed sentence. If you recanted you got a less painful death. You didnt get to speak in your defense. You didnt get to make your case. You died. Regardless.

And you said not to be a hypocrite? Yet you are judging the gnostics more harshly than agnosts and atheists, and they would have been treated just the same. Atheism is false teaching. Anyone that professes Atheism is a false prophet. Thats hypocritical of you. In fact, for professing that acceptance and other reasons in your post, you too would have been burned as an apostate. Those people back then would have been far more horrified by your brand of Christanity than the minor heresies of of their time.

If they even cared to examine the differences before you were drawn and quartered for the glory of god. They did stuff like that, you know? And that was being a good Christian.

You dont agree with those actions? Go back in time and profess those beliefs. You are not the Christian they were and you'd burn for it outside the aegis of secular society.


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02 Apr 2010, 10:46 pm

AutisticMalcontent wrote:

However, as for myself, I have fallen away from God. Like a lot of aspies, I'm an introvert, I don't socialize with people much, and I usually keep to myself. I usually just stay home and fill my time with learning trivial things


I think you have your answer right here, to continue to delude oneself about the voracity of religious belief requires the support of like minded people. Once you are away from these influences it becomes harder and harder to maintain beliefs that when held up to a spotlight look like a colander. I would counsel that you continue to enjoy learning trivial things.


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02 Apr 2010, 10:49 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
AutisticMalcontent wrote:

However, as for myself, I have fallen away from God. Like a lot of aspies, I'm an introvert, I don't socialize with people much, and I usually keep to myself. I usually just stay home and fill my time with learning trivial things


I think you have your answer right here, to continue to delude oneself about the voracity of religious belief requires the support of like minded people. Once you are away from these influences it becomes harder and harder to maintain beliefs that when held up to a spotlight look like a colander. I would counsel that you continue to enjoy learning trivial things.


I agree. If you still believe, ask yourself, why would god give me a mind and curiousity and then ask that I limit its use? Thats like wearing sunglasses so you dont fully appreciate flowers. Explore the universe as fully as life and time allow.


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