Are Women's Rights Against The Bible?

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He didn't tell Jephtah to kill his daughter, Jephtah promised that he will if something happens. A lot of people still criticise Jephtah for doing this - for both promising it in the first place, and killing her.


"Your" scripture says nothing about killing. What we do know, is that the bible tells you not to kill... So you can understand for yourself that if it means anything, it's not sacrifice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidyon_haben

Abraham's story says that you should follow God and things will be alright, and that even if he tells you to kill your son there is a reason, and you should trust him - that's why his son wasn't killed. Meaning, if God tells you to do something, do it. Besides, it delivers the concept that human sacrifice to God is ruled out - once Abraham agreed to, God told him "stop". Later on, it clarifies the verses you quoted. So... if God told you to do something, and you're not sure what it means, but he did speak againt one of the options, I guess that it's pretty much ruled out.

Ok, but even if Jepthah is criticized for promising this, there were 2 months when this could have been retracted. Could there be criticism of Jepthah? Well, to some extent there would likely be, especially in the modern era.


Here's what it says: "The firstborn of your sons you shall give to me." That does not establish the doctrine of Pidyon Haben. There are other places where sacrificing humans seems clear as well.

Also, if you say "the bible tells you not to kill", that's BS. The ten commandments are more properly translated as "thou shalt not murder", not kill. The Israelites did a whole mess of killing in the name of God. Killing in the name of God likely isn't murder.

That being said this isn't the only scripture, there were others, and this one also stands in favor of my negative interpretation of your verse.

Eze 20:25-26 Moreover, I gave them statutes that were not good and rules by which they could not have life, (26) and I defiled them through their very gifts in their offering up all their firstborn, that I might devastate them. I did it that they might know that I am the LORD.


Umm.... ok? I suppose that Abraham's story does tell you to follow God. There wasn't a reason for Abraham to kill his son.(other than testing his loyalty which is a BS reason)

Does it deliver the concept that human sacrifice is ruled out? No, it doesn't. The best it suggests is that child sacrifice isn't common:
Gen 22:7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, "My father!" And he said, "Here am I, my son." He said, "Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?"

But, an issue is that the idea would still seem absurd if God had his completely strong line about not making human sacrifices. The moral certainly is more damning to Christians who do say we have to worry about the trickeries of the devil. 2Co 11:14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

That being said, barbarism isn't inconsistent with the character of the God of the OT.

Deu 28:16-68 Cursed shall you be in the city, and cursed shall you be in the field. (17) Cursed shall be your basket and your kneading bowl. (18) Cursed shall be the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock. (19) Cursed shall you be when you come in, and cursed shall you be when you go out. (20) "The LORD will send on you curses, confusion, and frustration in all that you undertake to do, until you are destroyed and perish quickly on account of the evil of your deeds, because you have forsaken me. (21) The LORD will make the pestilence stick to you until he has consumed you off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. (22) The LORD will strike you with wasting disease and with fever, inflammation and fiery heat, and with drought and with blight and with mildew. They shall pursue you until you perish. (23) And the heavens over your head shall be bronze, and the earth under you shall be iron. (24) The LORD will make the rain of your land powder. From heaven dust shall come down on you until you are destroyed. (25) "The LORD will cause you to be defeated before your enemies. You shall go out one way against them and flee seven ways before them. And you shall be a horror to all the kingdoms of the earth. (26) And your dead body shall be food for all birds of the air and for the beasts of the earth, and there shall be no one to frighten them away. (27) The LORD will strike you with the boils of Egypt, and with tumors and scabs and itch, of which you cannot be healed. (28) The LORD will strike you with madness and blindness and confusion of mind, (29) and you shall grope at noonday, as the blind grope in darkness, and you shall not prosper in your ways. And you shall be only oppressed and robbed continually, and there shall be no one to help you. (30) You shall betroth a wife, but another man shall ravish her. You shall build a house, but you shall not dwell in it. You shall plant a vineyard, but you shall not enjoy its fruit. (31) Your ox shall be slaughtered before your eyes, but you shall not eat any of it. Your donkey shall be seized before your face, but shall not be restored to you. Your sheep shall be given to your enemies, but there shall be no one to help you. (32) Your sons and your daughters shall be given to another people, while your eyes look on and fail with longing for them all day long, but you shall be helpless. (33) A nation that you have not known shall eat up the fruit of your ground and of all your labors, and you shall be only oppressed and crushed continually, (34) so that you are driven mad by the sights that your eyes see. (35) The LORD will strike you on the knees and on the legs with grievous boils of which you cannot be healed, from the sole of your foot to the crown of your head. (36) "The LORD will bring you and your king whom you set over you to a nation that neither you nor your fathers have known. And there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone. (37) And you shall become a horror, a proverb, and a byword among all the peoples where the LORD will lead you away. (38) You shall carry much seed into the field and shall gather in little, for the locust shall consume it. (39) You shall plant vineyards and dress them, but you shall neither drink of the wine nor gather the grapes, for the worm shall eat them. (40) You shall have olive trees throughout all your territory, but you shall not anoint yourself with the oil, for your olives shall drop off. (41) You shall father sons and daughters, but they shall not be yours, for they shall go into captivity. (42) The cricket shall possess all your trees and the fruit of your ground. (43) The sojourner who is among you shall rise higher and higher above you, and you shall come down lower and lower. (44) He shall lend to you, and you shall not lend to him. He shall be the head, and you shall be the tail. (45) "All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that he commanded you. (46) They shall be a sign and a wonder against you and your offspring forever. (47) Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, (48) therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you. (49) The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the end of the earth, swooping down like the eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand, (50) a hard-faced nation who shall not respect the old or show mercy to the young. (51) It shall eat the offspring of your cattle and the fruit of your ground, until you are destroyed; it also shall not leave you grain, wine, or oil, the increase of your herds or the young of your flock, until they have caused you to perish. (52) "They shall besiege you in all your towns, until your high and fortified walls, in which you trusted, come down throughout all your land. And they shall besiege you in all your towns throughout all your land, which the LORD your God has given you. (53) And you shall eat the fruit of your womb, the flesh of your sons and daughters, whom the LORD your God has given you, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemies shall distress you. (54) The man who is the most tender and refined among you will begrudge food to his brother, to the wife he embraces, and to the last of the children whom he has left, (55) so that he will not give to any of them any of the flesh of his children whom he is eating, because he has nothing else left, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in all your towns. (56) The most tender and refined woman among you, who would not venture to set the sole of her foot on the ground because she is so delicate and tender, will begrudge to the husband she embraces, to her son and to her daughter, (57) her afterbirth that comes out from between her feet and her children whom she bears, because lacking everything she will eat them secretly, in the siege and in the distress with which your enemy shall distress you in your towns. (58) "If you are not careful to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that you may fear this glorious and awesome name, the LORD your God, (59) then the LORD will bring on you and your offspring extraordinary afflictions, afflictions severe and lasting, and sicknesses grievous and lasting. (60) And he will bring upon you again all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. (61) Every sickness also and every affliction that is not recorded in the book of this law, the LORD will bring upon you, until you are destroyed. (62) Whereas you were as numerous as the stars of heaven, you shall be left few in number, because you did not obey the voice of the LORD your God. (63) And as the LORD took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the LORD will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it. (64) "And the LORD will scatter you among all peoples, from one end of the earth to the other, and there you shall serve other gods of wood and stone, which neither you nor your fathers have known. (65) And among these nations you shall find no respite, and there shall be no resting place for the sole of your foot, but the LORD will give you there a trembling heart and failing eyes and a languishing soul. (66) Your life shall hang in doubt before you. Night and day you shall be in dread and have no assurance of your life. (67) In the morning you shall say, 'If only it were evening!' and at evening you shall say, 'If only it were morning!' because of the dread that your heart shall feel, and the sights that your eyes shall see. (68) And the LORD will bring you back in ships to Egypt, a journey that I promised that you should never make again; and there you shall offer yourselves for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but there will be no buyer."

Jer 19:7-9 And in this place I will make void the plans of Judah and Jerusalem, and will cause their people to fall by the sword before their enemies, and by the hand of those who seek their life. I will give their dead bodies for food to the birds of the air and to the beasts of the earth. (8) And I will make this city a horror, a thing to be hissed at. Everyone who passes by it will be horrified and will hiss because of all its wounds. (9) And I will make them eat the flesh of their sons and their daughters, and everyone shall eat the flesh of his neighbor in the siege and in the distress, with which their enemies and those who seek their life afflict them.'

So..... yeah.

I believe his post should also be removed. He's not insulting an opinion or idea...he's insulting a whole gender. It's not any better than being rascist.

I think he is attacking the notion of womens rights in the Bible, not expressing personal sexism. TheOddGoat is not a Christian but rather has seemed very negative towards it, this is a topic about Christian doctrine, thus I think the opinion expressed is that the Bible doesn't have women's rights due to a Christian notion that women are worth less than men.

I could be wrong, but I think that my interpretation is more correct than yours. Do you dispute my interpretation though?

I think it is a type of satire/sarcasm. Probably in a manner like you've interpreted it AG.

Well, I personally am of the belief that the bible is utter crap not worthy of use as toilet paper I still find it amusing that people actually believe that the things in that book happened. How stupid. "Don't worry, we only have to sacrifice animals this week, not children! Isn't god the best?"

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if the god was never intended to be some omnipotent force and that he was just some African warlord who forced people to write books about him and sacrifice their livestock and children to him. The angels were probably his bodyguards.

I also noticed that the list of contradictions on the last page was flat out ignored and so was Sands argument.

How about I post them again? Just incase you missed them.

The thread must have passed past them so fast the first time that the bible lovers conviniently missed the list.

Hope you enjoy!

A person is either for or against us. This person is not for us, so they are against us.

F \/ A. ~F .: A

A person is either for or against us. This person is not against us, so they are for us.

F \/ A. ~A .: F

I was sure it meant that if you follow god he will end up torturing you psychologically for his own entertainment.

Explain how they might be against the Bible.

Just at the very beginning:

Dominance of men over women is actually part of God's punishment, just like child birth pain. So any woman thinking that she should not obey whatever her husband says or that she should have non-natural births to avoid the pain is going against God's word . Uh oh.

There is also:
Deut 18:10: "Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft".

Also this:
Gen 22:6-7: "Abraham took the wood for the burnt offering and placed it on his son Isaac, and he himself carried the fire and the knife. As the two of them went on together, Isaac spoke up and said to his father Abraham, "Father?" "Yes, my son?" Abraham replied. "The fire and wood are here," Isaac said, "but where is the lamb for the burnt offering?"

According to that, one can argue about Isaac first and unique assumption of animal sacrifice as a common practice.

Anyway, that doesn't erase it, however the apparent contradiction as seen here, in the same Penthateuc as claimed to be the same author, can be solved by interpretation, as it is an interpretation that points to that issue anyway, the two Deuteronomy verses in response seem to state a clear position about sacrifice while the first stated is ambiguous, even if that isn't the case, it may be possible that child sacrifice may have been a ritualistic method in earlier times though, but I'm a bit skeptical about the issue unless there is any historical/archeological evidence for that, besides the Bible (I mean, interpretations of the Bible).

I actually referenced that one, but at best it argues that human sacrifice is uncommon.


Yeah.... good luck with that. I know that the issue is an open question in some circles, as I think a scholar named Jon Levenson actually wrote a book on the debate, however, the primary evidence was the scriptures.

And, of course, there is the ritual cannibalism in the rituals of consuming the blood and body of Christ.

I don't see why should I need luck on anything considering that I just stated to be skeptic about it, and no luck needed for that, if that's the case, those who hold the child sacrifice hypothesis seem to need it.


No consensus on that but yeah, I can say it is an interesting thing to consider but no near to assume it factual, especially if is an attack on Christianity or Judaism (debunkingchristianity..).


Yeah, scriptures may be a starting point but if nothing else corroborates it then it doesn't do much to a point of being useless in the case of interpretation of scriptures being the only thing to rely on.

Good luck with additional evidence. The Old Testament is likely the best evidence that we have.


Well, I'd be cynical towards the matter partially because we know that most other tribes in the region were doing this, and that Judaism was significantly influenced by other religions in the region. Maybe the Jews were the one pure group not doing this, but it seems doubtful, and a few scriptures go one way and a few go the other, which could mean that there was a pro and an anti-group for human sacrifice. This actually fits in with the notion of the documentary hypothesis, which is that the Pentateuch wasn't one written down document but rather a few synthesized together, which could mean that some Jews supported it, others didn't, but authorial intent on the matter wouldn't exist.


Right, but what would you want to corroborate something like this. I mean, the only thing that I can see is perhaps a ritual burial site, and this isn't mentioned, otherwise there cannot be evidence outside of the religious writings.

Yeah, I know that they were likely influenced by other religions, such as the hypothesis of borrowing things from the egyptians, sumerians, transition from polytheism to monotheism, and so on, I have stated of the possibility of being a practice earlier, however that may have been abolished when the new religion took place, it seems we cannot actually know of either of one, the funny thing I see on this is about using an unconfirmed idea to attack another in the source provided.

But one thing to consider is that that is mostly a secular perspective, so we would have christian scholars that would reject the notion and could argue that the israelites who did that were 'devious' doing something that wasn't approved, I mean they can very well argue that stories in the Bible portraying a figure doing something doesn't always lead to the aproval of it (not to mention that said evidence could be considered circumstantial and be enough to dismiss it, I think that can be dismissed anyway).


Interpretation of scriptures is a problem.