Professor Stephen Hawking says no God created Universe

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iamnotaparakeet
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05 Sep 2010, 11:22 pm

Jono wrote:
Sand wrote:
Jono wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
takemitsu wrote:
Sand wrote:
takemitsu wrote:
I think Hawking said this because he wanted to create some discourse...and to see if he could hit #1 on Google trends.


In other words Hawking was merely playing with publicity and didn't mean what he said. How do you come by the secret thoughts of Hawking?


Maybe it's a bit hard to come by entertainment when you live in a wheelchair.


He found a way to cheat on his first wife, Jane Hawking, at least. I wouldn't call that entertainment as much as treachery though.


And then he divorced her for the other woman. Too bad, Jane Hawking actually cared about him while I heard in the newspapers that there were allegations that the other woman was an abuser. So Hawking divorced her as well.


It seems that, since Hawking's theoretical cosmology is impervious to attack, in true McCarthyite strategy, character assassination is next on the menu.


Nobody wants character assassinate anyone. I actually admire Hawking for the work he has done. I read that information in newspaper articles. How many wives he's had has got nothing to do with, anything really.

Hawking is someone I'd love to meet.


He was in an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation, playing a game against Data, Einstein, and Newton. That was a fairly good episode if I recall correctly too.



ruveyn
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06 Sep 2010, 2:55 am

Jono wrote:

Hawking is someone I'd love to meet.


Have a care. He drools a lot.

ruveyn



Jono
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06 Sep 2010, 2:49 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Jono wrote:
Sand wrote:
Jono wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
takemitsu wrote:
Sand wrote:
takemitsu wrote:
I think Hawking said this because he wanted to create some discourse...and to see if he could hit #1 on Google trends.


In other words Hawking was merely playing with publicity and didn't mean what he said. How do you come by the secret thoughts of Hawking?


Maybe it's a bit hard to come by entertainment when you live in a wheelchair.


He found a way to cheat on his first wife, Jane Hawking, at least. I wouldn't call that entertainment as much as treachery though.


And then he divorced her for the other woman. Too bad, Jane Hawking actually cared about him while I heard in the newspapers that there were allegations that the other woman was an abuser. So Hawking divorced her as well.


It seems that, since Hawking's theoretical cosmology is impervious to attack, in true McCarthyite strategy, character assassination is next on the menu.


Nobody wants character assassinate anyone. I actually admire Hawking for the work he has done. I read that information in newspaper articles. How many wives he's had has got nothing to do with, anything really.

Hawking is someone I'd love to meet.


He was in an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation, playing a game against Data, Einstein, and Newton. That was a fairly good episode if I recall correctly too.


I remember that episode. He, as well as Einstein and Newton appeared as holodeck characters.



ChrisVulcan
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06 Sep 2010, 10:50 pm

DeaconBlues wrote:
Further, I submit that the discipline of science, being young and still seemingly difficult for many to understand, has never held any of the rather silly positions attributed by ChrisVulcan.

The Sun revolving around the Earth was, like the concept of spontaneous generation, the result of spotty observation and poor logic on the part of observers, resulting in "folk wisdom". Scientific observation was what proved the curvature of the Earth, and its approximate size, around the time of Aristotle; there were no instruments capable of determining which was the satellite and which the primary until shortly before Galileo's pioneering work.

As for transmutation, that was never "scientific"; alchemy resulted from superstitious Europeans seeing early chemical experiments being conducted by Muslim scientists before the Crusades, and decreeing that such things were sorcery. And since sorcery can do many inexplicable things, like cause crop failures, why couldn't these mysterious liquids be used to turn lead into gold?

The scientific process involves repeated observations, accompanied by experiments wherever possible; said experiments must be reproducible by other scientists in other labs, in order to rule out erroneous equipment. (For instance, the recently reported apparent variation in certain radioactive decay rates has thus far been reported by only one laboratory; until it can be reproduced elsewhere, the simplest explanation is that the observational equipment is insufficiently insulated from, say, seasonal temperature variations, or local electromagnetic fields, causing erroneous data to be observed.) Experiments which result in repeated failure result in a line of inquiry being abandoned by a scientist - not a trait alchemists were known for.


True, the geocentric model and the alchemy were a bit of a cheat. However, the spontaneous generation theory was very popular and was, if I remember correctly, even considered sound science in its day. A number of experiments were even conducted which apparently "proved" its accuracy. Read all about it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneou ... fic_method


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sartresue
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07 Sep 2010, 8:16 am

No God topic

As far as I know, it was Professor Richard Dawkins to whom this god negation could be attributed. :P

Professor Stephen Hawking does not play dice with the universe. :lol:


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07 Sep 2010, 8:36 am

I might be rather thick, but dont the laws of physics need matter to work on? So where did this matter come from.. no matter how you go about it there has to be an uncreated event of some kind..


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Sand
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07 Sep 2010, 8:52 am

scorpileo wrote:
I might be rather thick, but dont the laws of physics need matter to work on? So where did this matter come from.. no matter how you go about it there has to be an uncreated event of some kind..


I'm no expert but matter is crystallized energy and virtual particles are, according to theory, appearing continuously out of the matrix of space itself. The original event is theorized in various ways but Hawking seems to indicate that no supernatural being is necessary.



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07 Sep 2010, 9:08 am

Sand wrote:
scorpileo wrote:
I might be rather thick, but dont the laws of physics need matter to work on? So where did this matter come from.. no matter how you go about it there has to be an uncreated event of some kind..


I'm no expert but matter is crystallized energy and virtual particles are, according to theory, appearing continuously out of the matrix of space itself. The original event is theorized in various ways but Hawking seems to indicate that no supernatural being is necessary.


Where did "space" come from?



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07 Sep 2010, 9:12 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Where did "space" come from?


There are a number of replies to that question. One is the Kantian idea that Space and Time are structures created by the mind to order and reconcile the data provided by the senses. Another idea is that spacetime was squeezed and folded into a very tiny volume (a point size volume) and began to expand suddenly about thirteen billion years ago. This assumes that spacetime has always existed in some form.

ruveyn



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07 Sep 2010, 9:14 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:
scorpileo wrote:
I might be rather thick, but dont the laws of physics need matter to work on? So where did this matter come from.. no matter how you go about it there has to be an uncreated event of some kind..


I'm no expert but matter is crystallized energy and virtual particles are, according to theory, appearing continuously out of the matrix of space itself. The original event is theorized in various ways but Hawking seems to indicate that no supernatural being is necessary.


Where did "space" come from?


Sometimes there's no from. Why ask me? Ask Hawking.



iamnotaparakeet
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07 Sep 2010, 9:40 am

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Where did "space" come from?


There are a number of replies to that question. One is the Kantian idea that Space and Time are structures created by the mind to order and reconcile the data provided by the senses. Another idea is that spacetime was squeezed and folded into a very tiny volume (a point size volume) and began to expand suddenly about thirteen billion years ago. This assumes that spacetime has always existed in some form.

ruveyn


But, how could spacetime always exist in some form? I've heard the idea of the universe forming and collapsing and reforming and re-collapsing, but how would such a seemingly infinite cycle occur, and also maintain, indefinitely? Does this rely upon the possibility of the existence of a type of perpetual motion? What mechanisms would need to be employed for such a system to work?



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07 Sep 2010, 10:09 am

well here is a simple chip's idea.

i think that time and space and energy are separate, and there is one other separate aspect which is "laws" which bind them together.
the laws of physics are the most essential aspect of the manifest universe, and they exist independently of space or time or matter.

time does not give rise to laws. matter (bound energy) does not give rise to them and neither does space.
i believe time and space are infinite, and energy and laws are finite.

before one starts to employ mathematics to prove a concept, the concept must be arrived at with mere fundamental speculation.

space must be infinite because there can be no place where space does not exist. all places are in space, and if there is somewhere where there is no space, then that somewhere could not exist because all "somewheres" are in space.

if it can not be said that space does not exist in any "place". that is a fundamental truth.
Q: where does space not exist?
A: nowhere.
and nowhere does not exist.

likewise there can be no "time" when time does not exist.
Q: "when" does time not exist
A: never
and never never happened or will happen.

it is insensible to say "before" time began because "before" is a time previous to that.
it is insensible to say "after" time ends, because "after" is a time beyond that.

what i have said about time and space is the only possible reason anyone can doubt god exists.
if time was "created", then it must not have existed "before" it was created, and that is insensible to say.

as for energy, i think that there is a finite amount because if there was infinite energy, then the whole universe would be crammed with so much energy that it would be blindingly white and infinitely dense everywhere.

as for laws, i think there is a finite amount of laws because if there were infinite laws, then infinite chaos would be in every single point in the universe.

there is no rarefaction in energy or laws if they were infinite. they are the only manifestations in the universe. space and time are not manifestations but eternal realities.

i should not have embarked upon this post because it would take hundreds of pages to build into what i think the reason for our local universal acceleration of expansion is, and it is already 1:10 am and i must get up tomorrow.
i have not discounted god. i know we are supposed to be talking about what hawking said, and i read some reports about what he said and it seems to be non conclusive. i must find my way to read his actual words and digest them before i go any further.
i just said the fundamental anchor points on which my speculation is based upon.

well i stepped into the tigers cage and i fully expect to wake up mauled (virtually thank "god").



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07 Sep 2010, 10:40 am

Since it is common experience in working with particle physics to convert matter to energy and vice versa they are obviously different versions of the same thing. Since there is no doubt the universe is expanding it has been calculated that sometime between 10 and 20 billion years ago ago it was an infinitesimal size. That includes both time and space. Hawking's latest remarks indicate that somehow gravity is involved in that initiation with no necessity for any other initiator. No one knows what existed before that first moment but there are a few theories. This is not my conception, it is accepted by people far cleverer than myself who have spent their whole lives studying it. There are many books about it available almost anywhere if you are interested in the details.



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07 Sep 2010, 10:55 am

"Space" is that matrix defined by the presence of mass/energy. Until there is mass/energy to define it, space does not exist. As mass/energy "expands" (for lack of a better term), it defines more and more space.

One of the great unanswered questions in modern astrophysics is whether the universe is "open" or "closed" in four dimensions - that is, is there enough mass that gravity will eventually slow the expansion of the universe, and pull it all back together in a Big Crunch, or whether the universe will continue to expand, defining more and more space as it goes, eternally. (A subset is the question of whether the Big Crunch scenario leads to a cyclical universe, in which, after compacting everything back into the universal monobloc, another Big Bang would occur...)

"Time" is a way of measuring the process of entropy. Its passage can be altered by sufficient gravity (or sufficient acceleration - they are essentially the same thing, at least in an Einsteinian universe, which ours appears so far to be). However, it progresses in only one "direction" - entropy can't be reversed. (Time travel stories, while interesting and occasionally well-written, are thus revealed as fantasy. Larry Niven ran with this in his Svetz stories, in which time travel was invented in the mid-21st century - so whenever far-future temporal agent Hanville Svetz pushed his "extension cage" further into the past than that, he wound up in fantasy worlds, retrieving such examples of extinct animals as a horse with a horn or a giant fire-breathing "Gila monster".)


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11 Sep 2010, 9:12 pm

He never says "no god created the universe".

He simply said "god isn't necessary for the universe to exist".
....essentially, what scientists have been saying for centuries,
in contrast to the Gaps fallacy of theists.

Leave it to the general public to swallow some pop-cult bastardization of the work of a great physicist.


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iamnotaparakeet
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11 Sep 2010, 11:22 pm

Bethie wrote:
Leave it to the general public to swallow some pop-cult bastardization of the work of a great physicist.


They always follow the popularizers anyhow. They're merely parakeets spouting only what they've heard from their heroes.