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ouinon
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18 Sep 2010, 12:34 pm

ThatRedHairedGrrl wrote:
Fat in our society seems to = greedy, lazy, undisciplined, smelly, stupid, undesirable, and unhealthy. None of these is necessarily true of fat people, and all of them are in many cases true of thinner people. Especially, the health risks of being fat are widely distorted, misreported, and plain lied about. For instance, that chestnut about the obese being responsible for rising costs in healthcare: As well as the all the stuff LKL mentioned, the biggest chunk of health expense in all countries is in fact for the elderly in their last few years of life. It's been getting bigger as we all live longer, there's very little that can be done about those costs short of euthanasia, but governments need a scapegoat, and it's easy to target the overweight. (For more information about fat and the politics of healthcare generally, have a read of http://junkfoodscience.blogspot.com/ - it's quite an eye-opener.) The associations of fat with various diseases are also skewed by a) the proven hatred that medical staff also have for fat people, which means they're often misdiagnosed and/or simply don't ever go to their doctors; and b) the mental effect of the generally crappy way society treats them.

The media is largely useless on any story connected with weight, because the media is funded by advertisers, many of whom have a vested interest in selling weight loss-related products. Even our government think-tank, the National Obesity Forum, is 'partnered' (read funded) by a bunch of slimming clubs and gastric band manufacturers. How likely to be objective is any group with those kind of associations?

The thing is, as some people have noted, it really isn't about health for most people. It's about hating how some people look. They may claim it's about health, but people who are being objective about a health issue don't use emotive language like 'waddle' and 'fatty' and 'shoving food down their gobs' (all of which I often see used on online discussions that are ostensibly about fat people's health) - that's the language of hate, pure and simple. And many of the people making such comments excuse their lack of (verbal) self-control with 'Well it's not like racism or homophobia because fat people can always do something about it'. One, it's not been proven that it's feasible for most fat people to lose a large amount of weight and keep it off permanently (even gastric banding is limited in effectiveness - and did you know that the safety stats of clinics doing it only cover up to 30 days after the op?). Two, why should anyone have to deprive themselves of food just to make other people stop hating on them? People persecuted for their religion, which is also construed as a choice, aren't made to feel obliged to change it - not in civilised countries anyway. Also, let's bear in mind, people used to claim (and some still do) that being gay was a 'choice' and could easily be changed with enough effort. Sound familiar?

Seconding Hyperlexian and Erisad here ... QFT!

What you say about the "hate" is very interesting, because there is no "righteous", or "real", reason to feel this kind of emotion ( disgust, loathing, hatred, etc ) about fatness/fat people. As you say the "health issues and costs" justification for the attitude is a sort of red herring, ( a rationalisation made up of distortion/bias/exaggeration, etc ) ... the hatred of fatness is, as you point out, most akin to that still felt by great numbers of people about those of a certain race, religion, or sexuality ...

It's interesting, and, ( I'm realising ), very salutory, because it shows how hatred and disgust can be constructed/created and encouraged around any group in society, if it is sanctioned/permitted and "justified" by enough serious-sounding data ... exactly in the same way as the Third Reich managed to build up disgust, loathing, hatred, etc towards jewish people. A great many german people really did see jewish people as dirty, sneaking/sly, etc, as a threat to the german state ... and they felt absolutely justified.

I'm definitely thinking that "fat people" are seen as "the enemy" because they "represent" lack of control, but am open to other suggestions :) ... : in what way might fatness/fat people be being experienced or perceived as a "threat" to the USA and other industrialised countries such that society has allowed and even encouraged fatness/fat people in general to be reviled to this extent? ... What agenda is it serving? As ThatRedHeadedGrrl said there is a lot of money in slimming/diet industries ... but I can't believe that is enough to explain this amount of disgust and hatred.
.



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18 Sep 2010, 12:56 pm

Ouinon - We fat people don't really serve as a threat, really. If anything, we boost the economy by spending lots of money in the diet & exercise industry. :)



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18 Sep 2010, 1:08 pm

Strictly as an outsider without the insight others here have I'd like to ad something that's maybe obvious. Most people think (wrongly) that fatness is always caused by sedentarism and eating badly (and too much) - junk food, not enough fresh fruit and vegetable, not cooking etc - and these are associated not even so much with poverty and lack of control, but also stupidity, ignorance and laziness. I remember feeling disgust and even anger myself when seeing the way some people feed very young children - if I thought "fatness" in everybody reflects such habits, the next step could be feeling disgusted by all "fat" people.

*Disclaimer: I'm just commenting on things I've noticed - this doesn't reflect my own feelings and thoughts.


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18 Sep 2010, 1:13 pm

True beauty comes from within. My prejudice has always been about skinny model types: people who devote so much time and attention to their outward appearance must be pretty darn shallow on the inside. If I was stuck on a desert island for the rest of my life and could pick one partner, I would rather have someone with whom I could have an intelligent conversation because superficial beauty does not last. The skin deteriorates in time, hormone systems change in time, and metabolism changes over time. The brain however, has the ability to increase in agility over time.

To the OP's question, "fat" to me means a superficial value judgment that does not go past the skin and I, therefore, tend to ignore such labels. If a person wants to make themself more attractive, I suggest cultivating their inner character. The negative connotation of fatness is relatively recent. Past cultures have valued curvy, voluptuous types. IMHO, there is nothing sexier than a curvy voluptuous woman brimming with self confidence.



ouinon
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18 Sep 2010, 1:18 pm

Erisad wrote:
Ouinon - We fat people don't really serve as a threat, really.

I'm not saying that fatness/fat people are a threat, in fact my point is that they are not; they are just perceived or experienced as one; it's what fuels, and ostensibly "justifies" the hatred and disgust.

Jewish people weren't a threat to the german state either ... why did they get picked on? That's what I'm trying to understand; why has fatness/fat people become a scapegoat like this, the object of contempt and disgust and so on?

What makes a "good scapegoat"? Why do so many people actually, really, feel so repelled by fat? We've been taught to feel it, but why? ... Why has society picked on this particular group? ... Maybe no reason ... it was a kind of evolutionary process of adaptation ...

Scapegoating fatness/fat people has simply been more successful, and profitable, than scapegoating certain other/equivalent groups. It paid. ... :?: ... ... ... like it paid to scapegoat jewish people with all their money? ... Fat people keep buying the diet foods and paying for the diet programmes, as you and TRHGrrl said, Erisad. :) Hmmm. ...
.



Last edited by ouinon on 18 Sep 2010, 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Sep 2010, 1:23 pm

ouinon wrote:
Seconding Hyperlexian and Erisad here ... QFT!

What you say about the "hate" is very interesting, because there is no "righteous", or "real", reason to feel this kind of emotion ( disgust, loathing, hatred, etc ) about fatness/fat people. As you say the "health issues and costs" justification for the attitude is a sort of red herring, ( a rationalisation made up of distortion/bias/exaggeration, etc ) ... the hatred of fatness is, as you point out, most akin to that still felt by great numbers of people about those of a certain race, religion, or sexuality ...

It's interesting, and, ( I'm realising ), very salutory, because it shows how hatred and disgust can be constructed/created and encouraged around any group in society, if it is sanctioned/permitted and "justified" by enough serious-sounding data ... exactly in the same way as the Third Reich managed to build up disgust, loathing, hatred, etc towards jewish people. A great many german people really did see jewish people as dirty, sneaking/sly, etc, as a threat to the german state ... and they felt absolutely justified.

I'm definitely thinking that "fat people" are seen as "the enemy" because they "represent" lack of control, but am open to other suggestions :) ... : in what way might fatness/fat people be being experienced or perceived as a "threat" to the USA and other industrialised countries such that society has allowed and even encouraged fatness/fat people in general to be reviled to this extent? ... What agenda is it serving? As ThatRedHeadedGrrl said there is a lot of money in slimming/diet industries ... but I can't believe that is enough to explain this amount of disgust and hatred.
.

i have been toying with an idea that will probably cause some anger here... i do think this idea is secondary to the idea of lack of control or pushing the slimming/diet schemes, but nonetheless i think it may play a part in our societal disgust for obesity.

i think it angers society because it may appear as though fat people are 'checking out' of society's expectations in term of sexual attractiveness. there are many happily married and/or sexual active fat people, but advertising and popular culture have tried to make it look like an impossible dream. after all, fat is supposed to equal unattractive right? society says if a person is fat, then that person should be a self-hating loser who dips his doritos into full-fat ice cream while crying over a rom-com.

there is a general sense of HOW DARE YOU BE FAT and STILLL HAVE SELF-ESTEEM?... fatties are supposed to make themselves attractive according to a narrow standard, and if they don't work hard at trying to stay thin then the media says that they don't deserve happiness. people who are constantly trying to physically "improve" themselves are held up as examples because they bought into the expectations. i believe that society resents fat people because they defy these standards.

one non-fat-related example i can think of is shaving body hair. i went through a period of a few years when i did not bother to shave. most people, especially male sexual and relationship partners, did not care at all... but some women cared a lot. they were frankly offended that i would dare to stop shaving, like i had somehow betrayed them by being unshaven yet still attractive to men. of course, there were probably lots of guys who disliked it, but i did not associate with those men.

this isn't really a new idea, but it has only really been introduced as a feminist issue, and i think it applies to both men and women.


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18 Sep 2010, 1:26 pm

ouinon wrote:
Erisad wrote:
Ouinon - We fat people don't really serve as a threat, really.

I'm not saying that fatness/fat people are a threat, in fact my point is that they are not; they are just perceived or experienced as one; it's what fuels, and ostensibly "justifies" the hatred and disgust.

Jewish people weren't a threat to the german state either ... why did they get picked on? That's what I'm trying to understand; why has fatness/fat people become a scapegoat like this, the object of contempt and disgust and so on?

What makes a "good scapegoat"? Why do so many people actually, really, feel so repelled by fat? We've been taught to feel it, but why? ... Why has society picked on this particular group? ... Maybe no reason ... it was a kind of evolutionary process of adaptation ...

Scapegoating fatness/fat people has simply been more successful, and profitable, than scapegoating other groups. It paid. ... :?:
.


I wasn't saying that you did feel that way. I was agreeing with you by answering the question you posed even though it seemed to be a rhetorical question. >.>

Why? I dunno. The ideal beauty is revered so much in the States that a fat person is seen as the enemy to that ideal. Not to mention, we have difficulty chasing them (damn my sh***y stamina!) so they could run away if we tried to confront them on it. XD

Exactly, it's profitable. Scapgoating jews isn't very profitable because they can't change who they are. Granted, they can be a non-practicing jew (I know a few of them) but their heritage won't change. With fat people, there is potential for change. So companies push all these diet products and exercise equipment by making people feel like they aren't a real person because of their fat. :/

Hopefully I answered some questions for you. :)



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18 Sep 2010, 1:42 pm

I have never seen people who have weight issues in the light that they project and believe that others feel about them. I don't know who tells them that or gives them the ideas they have. Some of it to some extent I think is self inflicted and projected on others a lot of the time. It has been projected on me enough times and I know for a fact that I don't feel that way or even think that way about them but I'm at a point where if I'm going to have a group of people throwing this garbage at me, fine. There, now you have it, now you can accuse me of all your nonsense like you accuse everyone simply because you hate yourself and think everyone else does too. I have hard feelings when people are hurtful enough time about a certain thing and take it out on others all the time. Weight is not a real problem as far as I can see. It's a problem in the mind of the beholder. I know our society conditions us to think one thing is better than another, or one thing is even bad, but I have never held the judgments myself so why have I been accused of it and even beaten up on by big, fat people both physically and verbally.

The way that some people who are built or made to be larger, others are smaller and can't do anything about that either. I have experienced a lot of animosity in my life from the larger set and have some hard feelings about it by now. It's hard for me to have compassion for people who have so much projected animosity at everyone who isn't the same as they are. Accept yourselves like the rest of us have to, love yourself, fat is not an excuse, and stop projecting all the negativity because in that way you really only bring it upon yourself. Thin is no longer popular. Will it ever be enough though to make you happy and make you know that the whole world doesn't hate you because you're fat.



Last edited by Meadow on 18 Sep 2010, 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Sep 2010, 4:10 pm

ouinon wrote:
Seconding Hyperlexian and Erisad here ... QFT!
I'm definitely thinking that "fat people" are seen as "the enemy" because they "represent" lack of control, but am open to other suggestions :) ...


I'm buying this one.

hyperlexian wrote:
i think it angers society because it may appear as though fat people are 'checking out' of society's expectations in term of sexual attractiveness. there are many happily married and/or sexual active fat people, but advertising and popular culture have tried to make it look like an impossible dream. after all, fat is supposed to equal unattractive right?


But not so much this one.

My uncle was an athlete who was always shaking his head in disgust every time he came for a visit and saw how fat and my mother and my aunts were (and of course he was also always offering some supposedly well-meaning suggestion about how they'd better lose weight or die early), but after he passed his heydays and he and his own wife gained some serious weight, I've noticed the head-shaking magically stopped. He also seemed startled when my genuinely curious mother asked him how he'd gotten that fat, and my guess is he was completely embarrassed because not being able to keep the weight down is a sign that he'd lost control. So to believe that fat people are seen as the enemy because they represent lack of control... sounds right to me.



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18 Sep 2010, 4:32 pm

When I hear "fat", I think about the substance that keeps us insulated and provides long-term storage of nutrition for use in respiration.

However, if you mean the adjective, it brings to my mind ideas of unattractiveness and unhealthiness. I just don't find overweight people particularly attractive. They either have a bad diet or bad genes, neither of which is an attractive quality.


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18 Sep 2010, 7:27 pm

Meadow wrote:
People become bullies because they have a BIG MOUTH, not unlike the one you are demonstrating right now as you continue for whatever reason to harass me at every opportunity. You will only attempt to exploit everything I say for your own gain because that is all you are in it to do. I really do loathe bullies like you who prey this way on the vulnerability of others.

*shrug*
If asking you to defend aggressive statments = bullying, so be it.



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18 Sep 2010, 7:44 pm

LKL wrote:
Meadow wrote:
People become bullies because they have a BIG MOUTH, not unlike the one you are demonstrating right now as you continue for whatever reason to harass me at every opportunity. You will only attempt to exploit everything I say for your own gain because that is all you are in it to do. I really do loathe bullies like you who prey this way on the vulnerability of others.

*shrug*
If asking you to defend aggressive statments = bullying, so be it.


*shrugs*
Aggressive statement - your term. And likewise think that has a lot more to do with you.

My statement related to personal issues and wasn't rocket science.

You just look for something or someone to jump on. You did that around me when I was here before so I don't appreciate the second round. Everyone has a right to their space in the world, and even express it at times.



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18 Sep 2010, 7:51 pm

You have an absolute right to express your thoughts and feelings; you do not have a right to an audience, nor a right to be free of the social consequences for that expression. :roll:



Last edited by LKL on 18 Sep 2010, 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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18 Sep 2010, 7:58 pm

LKL wrote:
You have an absolute right to express your thoughts and feelings; you do not have a right to an audience, nor a right to be free of the social consequences for that expression.


I'm not sure what you mean by "audience" with regard to my rights. I don't think you really know very much about autism and the challenges therein, or you wouldn't be so much on the attack and be such a hen-pecking, pecker-wood. Grow yourself up and find someone else to campaign against or beat up on.



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18 Sep 2010, 9:22 pm

Meadow wrote:
I have never seen people who have weight issues in the light that they project and believe that others feel about them. I don't know who tells them that or gives them the ideas they have. Some of it to some extent I think is self inflicted and projected on others a lot of the time. It has been projected on me enough times and I know for a fact that I don't feel that way or even think that way about them but I'm at a point where if I'm going to have a group of people throwing this garbage at me, fine. There, now you have it, now you can accuse me of all your nonsense like you accuse everyone simply because you hate yourself and think everyone else does too. I have hard feelings when people are hurtful enough time about a certain thing and take it out on others all the time. Weight is not a real problem as far as I can see. It's a problem in the mind of the beholder. I know our society conditions us to think one thing is better than another, or one thing is even bad, but I have never held the judgments myself so why have I been accused of it and even beaten up on by big, fat people both physically and verbally.

The way that some people who are built or made to be larger, others are smaller and can't do anything about that either. I have experienced a lot of animosity in my life from the larger set and have some hard feelings about it by now. It's hard for me to have compassion for people who have so much projected animosity at everyone who isn't the same as they are. Accept yourselves like the rest of us have to, love yourself, fat is not an excuse, and stop projecting all the negativity because in that way you really only bring it upon yourself. Thin is no longer popular. Will it ever be enough though to make you happy and make you know that the whole world doesn't hate you because you're fat.


I have seen anti-thin/small animosity a great deal. My partner is small (7 stone or thereabouts) when not with child, and has commented about the number of times people have given her abuse for being apparently underweight, anorexic, size zero, or "needing to eat some dinners", especially from people who are markedly overweight. To a degree this is fuelled by jealousy no doubt, but also the current reaction to the "size zero" issue. To some peoples minds, anyone who is small clearly has some sort of eating disorder. We even copped for such ridiculous concepts from a (very large) clinical assistant who was convinced that my partner must have a disorder and not be eating enough for her and our child, simply because she is small.


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19 Sep 2010, 12:18 am

greenblue wrote:
Asmodeus wrote:
Why is the word "fat", applied to a person, so widely understood in the West/industrialised society as a negative value judgement?
Because obesity is a lifestyle disease, and has other negative connotations.

well, he said fat, and I find generalizations often made a bit problematic, while in some cases overweight is due to lifestyle, there are the ones who are genetically predisposed of being overweight, so they have to do diet and make more sacrificies than you may be willing to do, if you are not overweight, and even that may have trouble losing weight. I mean, I am skinny, but I have noticed I eat more than some of them do, and I'm not that overweight. Not only that, but with the issue of obesity, at which point it can be accurately said that a person is actually obese, because overweight doesn't seem to always equal to obesity.

Quote:
What is it about the meaning of the word "fat" which is so abhorrent, repellent, loathsome, such that "fat person" is a judgement which sets someone up to be despised, rejected, mocked, or pitied, looked down on, etc?
"fat" commonly refers to obesity or morbid obesity. Finding malnourished people less pleasing to the eye is hardwired, be they largely under or overweight, or in any other way different for that matter. In a society free to eat as much or little as we like, obesity is no longer a symbol of wealth through excess, and remains only as a sign that one's discipline of body is lacking. Social pressure, both positive and negative, exists to pull people to conform, and to have similar fitness to your peers is no exception. Because of this, obese people will be mocked, rejected, and resultantly pitied or looked down upon.

Fat would be refered to people from being overweight to obesity, not necessarily being solely refered towards obese people, and the issue of finding displeasing fat people, that is related to the yuck factor, so there lies the question, is it reasonable and moraly justifiable to socially mistreat and practically some sort of discrimination against a group of people based on the yuck factor? I mean, some people have tried to justify racism and homophobia under that, and so they could very well claim that "the despleasing in the eye to be hardwire" as well, and many people would find that demoralizing.

Quote:
Why is "fatness" seen like this?
Because obesity is a lifestyle disease, it is in the vast majority of cases both preventable and treatable. Socially it is commonly considered physically unattractive, see above.

Not always, given that in some cases it is congenital, and some of them work really hard to lose some weight, and doing so to gain social acceptance, and some of them develop low self-steem given the social issues for their physical appereance. Heck, some of them can develop symptoms similar to anorexia nervosa.

I have observed that some people don't seem to acknowledge or care about the efforts, so much as I would advise them to do the job for themselves and healthy reasons rather than pleasing other people, because for one, I distrust those other people and people's judgments in general, especially regarding assumptions towards other people.

I have highlighted parts of the quoted text for easier literary digestion. You raise a point:
Quote:
so there lies the question, is it reasonable and moraly justifiable to socially mistreat and practically some sort of discrimination against a group of people based on the yuck factor? I mean, some people have tried to justify racism and homophobia under that, and so they could very well claim that "the despleasing in the eye to be hardwire" as well, and many people would find that demoralizing.

Perhaps, in the sense that being overweight or obese is a lifestyle disease, and in most cases is both preventable and completely treatable. It is a choice in such cases,, and therefore utterly unlike discrimination based upon race or sexuality. Being a choice, it is therefore on par with discrimination for other life choices, for example disliking fans of emo music, or drug addicts. The basis of my claim that people finding malnourished people less pleasing to the eye is hardwired spans from the beautiful is good hypothesis, there are many studies that each give a fairly broad picture of how looks influence the manner in which people interact. I'm fairly certain there are studies that touch on overweight and obsese people.

That being said, all objectionable behaviour is objectionable in some manner, and whether or not negative social pressure is helpful is a matter for sociologists, politicians and "fat" people to work out, free from my observations.