memories, death and the afterlife?

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wow. i believe there are different levels of what humans like to call [by various names] the higher worlds. since there is not one adult person under the sun totally sans sin, it would seem that there would have to be sinners in the higher worlds, with relatively few of those of fewer sins in the higher reaches, and those with greater sin accumulation predominating in the lower areas. a good example would be with the mormons, who believe there are 3 heavens, namely the telestial [for the average schlub], the terrestrial [for the typical middle-class professional] and the celestial [for a relatively few moral exemplars]- god only knows the precise demarkations. they don't believe in a hell per se, but there is biblical reference to "outer darkness." they believe that eternal life in some kind of heaven [low, medium or high] is a "freebie" of sorts, a godly gift.
in general, everyone is nominally responsible for the life choices they have made, regardless of internal/external locus of control. however, i believe grace is at least a partial expiator of karma. if one has caused injury to another person but doesn't realize it, they will have a day of reckoning but it will be instructive and not punitive. if a person was malicious with aforethought, god is not mocked, and that person will eventually have to face him/herself. the "rules of the audit" are whether or not the person in question treated others as s/he would have liked to be treated, and how far said person has deviated from perfection.



we have "free" choice only when in spirit. there is restricted choice while incarnate, because of diminished awareness. the original "hell" was merely a pit for offal. edgar cayce didn't believe in hell, and i don't believe in hell. you can believe what you want, but i would hope you did not worry yourself over it. and i don't believe god "sends" any of us anyplace at all. our individual spirits do the "sending," depending on our individual level of evolvement.



god does not blame anybody. all of creation is god. we are part of god. god cannot blame a part of god's self. everything is as it is for reasons god only knows the totality of. what seems to be wrong is only because of our human imperfect perception of reality. this is merely my opinion, and you may find comfort in it or ash-can it, the choice is yours.

i only asked the questions in my post that i thought of when i was in scripture classes at school. i do not labor to resolve those question in my current life. i do not think about what is going to happen when i die because i am not dead, and when i am dead, if i can think (which i know i will not be able to) , then i will address those questions then.


how can there be "choice" when one is a pure spirit? if you do not have a brain, you can not decide or even know what the alternatives are.
i would think that if it were true that one could exist as only a soul, then all would be inevitable.




well if god does not blame me for anything i choose to do, then why would i be consigned to suffering if i do not know what to do?

you seem to say that god does not send me anywhere, but i will wind up there because of my own actions, but if i do not perceive i did anything wrong, then i will never be in a place of suffering because i have no guilt.
maybe you think that i rationalize my actions and forgive myself while alive because it is only my living brain that can rationalize, and when i die, i will not have that brain to rationalize my actions, and i will see the bare universal consequence of my existential effort, and i will suffer.

god i hope not. i am oblivious to anything i ever did wrong and i will say that all i did wrong in my life was to make people confused and affronted. being affronted does not swerve their destinies away from their ultimate fates.

i think i am too spiritually stupid to really respond adequately, and i am too intellectually stupid to refrain from posting this failure to situate my thoughts.



i do neither. i think you are spiritually more gifted than me, but i do not redesign my world around your words. i also do not think you are incorrect. i just know that i am not able to know the truth of spiritual realities within the construct of my brain.

I think memories are just aspects of the material brain and that our stream of consciousness will rejoin the the greater pool. I think that dying as an egotistic person will only make rejoining harder, and the stream won't be able to harmonize right, leading to aeons of separation from the greater whole and experienced disharmony.

two books that you might entertain the possibility of reading sometime, as diversions when you are not busy doing other things:

"life after life" [dr. raymond moody];
"you cannot die" [dr. ian stevenson];
the collected works of robert monroe;
the collected works of edgar cayce.

the first two books are about studies of people who have had "near-death experiences," with the 2nd book being an exploration of metaphysical concepts. the third author wrote about his personal experiences in astral travel. the 4th author was a bona-fide spiritual practitioner. for something a bit past "near death" there is-

"return from tomorrow" [dr. george ritchie, MD]

about the author's own experience of astral travel. a major point of all 5 authors is that not only does one NOT lose one's mind upon passing into a higher dimension of existence, but one's cognitive facilities are enhanced by orders of magnitude beyond earthly capacity, without the drag of a coarse physical brain muddying up thought. these books indicate that choice is a major feature of existence in the higher realms.



in terms of limited "free" will while incarnate, you have a point there. limited awareness limits free will, in a similar manner as a captive young elephant raised to believe it cannot free itself from a rope tied to a stake in the ground, will be successfully restrained in that way until it passes on. you as an IT professional will consider this clumsy, but i like the analogy of god being the mainframe [or central server] and each spirit being a terminal. each terminal is part of a network that together function as the sense organ of the central server. each terminal can exchange data with other terminals and/or the server. each terminal possesses an incomplete awareness of the whole network and of the server, "knowing" just what it needs to know to function in its own way. each terminal can also cut itself off from everything else. each of us human are like the terminals in a network, each individual of which have only an incomplete picture of reality, with at best a dim picture of echelons beyond reality, or to borrow some biblical language, "as through a glass darkly."



one is learning, and one is NOT on greased rails to suffering in the higher world, only in the lower physical world of diminished awareness. if in one's lifetime one did harm to others with malice aforethought, upon death one might find themself in a private place ["outer darkness"] only because one as a spirit eventually realize that one needs a "time out" to sort out one's most recent lifetime passed, IOW the spirit will attempt to figure out why it did as it did. it is one's OWN spirit that judges itself, not god. one's own self often can be the harshest judge. since humans [like all of creation] are a tiny piece of god [re: God=central server, Spirit=terminal, Creation=network], humans have the wisdom of good and evil inside them at all times. one's conscious mind doesn't always listen to this subtle inner voice, but it is there.



eventually the chickens come home to roost. one cannot avoid the eventuality of comprehending whatever mistakes one has made. it could be soon after the mistake, it could be at the distal end of a lifetime, it could be several lifetimes. but there will be a time when one has to face one's own self in the light of full memory, full disclosure of all the spirit has done. a person while alive, may decide this life is the only thing and that there is nothing else, so when that person passes into spirit, they may be asleep for a long time. but eventually they awaken to face themselves and fully acknowledge that one has deviated from their spiritual path, i.e., fallen from grace, or sinned. you may not especially like mormons, but if you were to chat with an older one for a while you will eventually come to the topic of spiritual rescues- there is a subset of the faith which purports to prayerfully intercede in the cases of spirits who pass into conscious oblivion sans remembrance of the existence of higher planes which they came from and returned to.



anybody who reads this forum regularly can attest to the fact that i don't [logically] think. i am reguritating what better people have "told" me [either in person or from reading their works]. with this in mind, people far sharper than me [and more well-read on metaphysical topics] will tell you that facing oneself is sometimes a cause of great suffering, and that one has to go through that suffering to reach the wisdom awaiting beyond, i.e., "no pain, no gain." when you wrestle through your own "dark night of the soul" you will emerge from it with greater spiritual muscle, and a new clarity of moral purpose. it is better if this happens during one's present lifetime, but of course not everybody can be aware of every little thing they have done or failed to do [sins of commission and omission]. that is the main reason behind the [belief in] concept of reincarnation, that no one spirit [not even jesus] got it totally right the first and only time.



your thoughts have exceptional clarity. there will always be those lesser and greater than oneself, but you are in a high category, cognitively speaking. you thought [and were brave enough] to ask the questions in the first place which is only good.



not my words, i only pass them along to anybody who will listen to them and entertain them. and one [aside from the occasional seer] never really knows what tomorrow brings. btw, if you ARE interested in seers and such, google george anderson, robert monroe and edgar cayce, men with very interesting life stories.

I dont think this is particularly well thought out. There are a number of neurotypes that don't, can't and won't feel guilt such as the sociopaths. Others are also incapable of correcting their behavior, such as FAS brain damaged people.

They would not sort well into your reincarnation scheme. If guilt is the sorting mechanism, their lack of remorse would leave them a certain freedom of travel through and past the areas of the afterlife where they need to learn lessons.

I remember that Robert Monroe suggested much the same thing as you. He seemed to be unable to render the idea that some people really are remorseless(and sometimes monsters).

such are physical limitations which do not apply in the world of spirit. truly evil [unevolved in spirit] entities have their own contemplative/instructive place in the realm of spirit, where they can do no harm to other spirits.



guilt/remorse is not the sorting mechanism, but evolvement past physical concerns is. when one no longer needs physical experience, the higher mental worlds open for admission. sociopaths have not reached the point where any but the most earthlike higher worlds are available for them to rest in between incarnations. they will be only among their own type. psychic sylvia browne [whatever you may think of her] believes they don't even enter the higher worlds, instead spending some time in a purgatory-like world of chaos and destruction, before going "through the left door" into a random reincarnated existence- some are given a choice of an experience on a world lower even than earth. this is not a "punishment" as is understood by humans, but a learning experience tailored to the sociopaths' primitive level of spiritual development. punishment is strictly an earthly human concept of value judgment. by thoughts and deeds, each spirit meets itself, estimates itself in reference to perfection, and by the degree of divergence from perfection allows things to work out via karma. there are karmic workarounds but they are less than pleasant.



even sociopathic monsters have their time of reckoning, in the hereafter. nobody escapes. they can face the music [submit to karma or "remodeling"] or they can give up their individuated soul identities.
speaking of the late mr. monroe, it was not that he was incapable of understanding human evil. he was a high-ranking broadcast executive in life, where the long dampened knives glint, so he surely knew of earthly evil. it was that he was so spiritually evolved that he was able to avoid evil, and had no reason to even think about evil. he was above it all. his desired audience were people similarly evolved as himself.

Here you suggest punishment or correction to a spirit that was not responsible(by virtue of inability) for its past actions. Because morality and conscience are so tightly integrated to the fundamentals of a being, you are effectively punishing someone else. Thats like punishing a child for kicking puppies when they are already horrified at the thought. That is madness and cruelty. I addressed that early in the thread.

Did your parents ever give you any beatings "just in case" or "one for next time"? I bet not, right? Thats how you make a bully. Thats how you make a dog real mean. You beat him till he fears you and uses your technique on others. Thats how sociopaths and serial killers get started often enough. They are denigrated and dehumanized unfairly for years.

So yeah, give a newly deceased spirit a sudden sense of guilt and then punish him for eons. Then reincarnate him! Great plan.



I just addressed this.



Its moot who his audience was. What counts is what he and you claim happen after death. And I am sure he understood evil and viscousness just fine. What I said was that he grew up in a time where it was assumed that anyone was capable of salvation and reformation. When he was experiencing and writing in the 60s was a time when society just starting to understand that some people really are rotten to the core. To quote Cool Hand Luke "Some men you just cant reach"(1967). Movies like that were a watershed in public opinion, because just a few years earlier, a movie with an ending like that(no redemption) was unacceptable to hollywood.

I cite rules 6 and 17:

you are confusing me. admittedly easy to do but i would beg off. and when did sociopaths have "morality and conscience" "tightly integrated to the fundamentals" of their "being"? this "enquiring mind wants to know." correctional instruction is not punishment, per se, but more akin to study at one's [spirit] own pace. one is merely in the grade or class they are ready for, by their own estimation. no spiritual entity is forced into anything against their own being. we are all here because we agreed to be here, in earth school, even if some of us [especially me] rue their choice. with my earthly mind, i would not think that i would have chosen the formative years of my life to be one subject to bullying all around, but here i am, with billions in far worse conditions that one shouldn't forget. the sociopaths reincarnating via the "left door" do so because they are not ready to re-enter the higher worlds after their overwhelming first few times on earth - rather like being made to repeat a grade until one passes or drops out of school or requests a place in an alternative school. and being any place in heaven is not a punishment by any stretch of the imagination. my mormon acquaintances told me that when joseph smith was shown the "telestial glory" [which is the bottom rung of the mormon heavenly cosmology] he described it as so beautiful that he found death to be a temptation, so he could be there then, forever in that heavenly world.



i was indeed raised like that, as was my oldest brother. and yes, i am totally screwed up. but i would not say that all black sheep are or have been abused. this is a point better discussed elsewhere.



i never said "punishment" for "eons." "sudden sense of guilt." if you want to befuddle me even more than i normally am, you've succeeded. hooray you've proved that you're smarter than me- goody.



whatever . edgar cayce grew up during the late 19th century during a time of hard luck boom and bust- and he said things that didn't disagree with what robert monroe said. and judging from the brutal methods of execution in play during monroe's childhood, i'd say he also grew up in an era when some folk were considered unredeemable. in any case this has nothing to do with either men's philosophy. saying that some people are beyond hope is akin to saying something like "there will always be wars" - a moral cop-out, or "giving in to the dark side." what part of the golden rule do you oppose? would you want somebody else to give up on you?
may your belief system work well for you. don't begrudge me my need to believe in something which gives me a reason to keep on truckin.'

No, I think when you die you totally forget that you were ever born in the first place. But the universal principles the cause you to be born in the first place still exist in a critical phase of the universes history when biological matter reached a critical level of complexity for ego to emerge. So what I believe may happen is the information processes that booted your ego into existence would be emulated by another brain somewhere else just as if it is another singular life experience totally detached from any other memory of other experiences. Over time you will personally experience the life of every intelligent being that has lived and ever will live in the universe so when it comes down to it there is only one self. Well that is my theory, and may way of thinking outside the square on such big questions.

There is not an iota of empirical evidence to support this nonsense. When we are dead, we are gone (a persons). All that immediate follows is either ashes or rotting flesh and eventually only a thin mist of slime and a vapor of organic molecules. Such is our fate.

ruveyn

it is far easier to attempt to lambaste another persons analysis than it is to provide your own alternative analysis when you are old i think.

your alternative description of your analysis is quite tired. i hope my imagination is not as worn out as yours when i get to your age.

You are interested in Imagination. I am interested in Facts.

ruveyn

That may be your intuition but it is hopelessly paradoxical. But if you never exist then you would be in the paradoxical situation where all time will subjectively come to an end, even googolplex years into the future.

Below is a syllogism which shows just how paradoxical your hypothesis is:
Major premise: Any future existence after any given point of time after our death is impossible because the laws of physics forbid it.
Minor premise: The laws of physics before our birth and after our death are both identical, that is an empirical fact.
Conclusion: So any future existence after any given point of time before our birth would be also impossible.
Go figure.

Maybe we shouldn't cling to emotions so much.

Yes. Let us cling to justice, decency and fair play. That which is achievable and righteous for us is surely applicable standards for our gods.

I think when you die you do not have any memories of this life; no bad ones no good ones or even remember your name and your language. If fact you even forget you were even born in the first place. So it begs the question how did we manage to get born in the first place. We were born in the first place out of "Anthropic" necessity or apparent Cosmological Natural Selection, as it is not possible for us to be aware of any of the failed attempts to exist, such as or parents never meeting. Cosmological Natural Selection will necessarily tune you in to another space-time frame of reference 13.7 billion years after the Big Bang. Why? because this is the time the universe has created all its 92 natural elements through stellar evolution and 33 necessary for the development of life these include Aluminium, Arsenic, Boron, Bromine, Cadmium, Calcium, Carbon, Chlorine, Chromium, Cobalt, Copper, Fluorine, Germanium, Hydrogen, Iodine, Iron, Magnesium, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Nitrogen, Oxygen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Selenium, Silicon, Sodium, Sulphur, Tin, Titanium, Tungsten, Vanadium, Tin. Others such as Platinum and Iridium could also be thrown in as a catalyst for life during abiogenisis even though they are not a component of life itself. The universe emerged just out of its own spontaneous creation necessarily out of an unstable nothingness. It did not need God or some supernatural intervention it created itself. But our existence came about through Cosmological Natural Selection because it is our kind of universe more capable of finding subjectivity which is you, the only means to which the universe can be aware of its own existence.