Feminism vs. Equality

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Next you're gonna tell me that this leave is with pay. You crazy Swedes with your priorities all properly in check...

But, understandable or not, it's still a barrier to true progress in the scheme of things. Being angry is understandable in a number of situations but rarely does it accomplish anything constructive in terms of your interactions with others.

Exactly. It's just fighting fire with fire.

Nonsense what if a black nationalist incites a mob and kills a few white people, do white nationalism and black nationalism not pose the same threats? Race wars. Your tolerances of either is foolish at best idiotic at worst and harmful either way.

What power differential are you referring to between men and women?

Black nationalist's have no hope of dominating the white race. Indeed they do not even desire such an outcome. Whereas whites have traditionally owned slaves, colonised africa etc

Historically women were officially owned by men as a part of a marriage. The woman had no economic rights and was effectively owned by the man.

But my argument did not assert that, I am saying that if you allow hate to go unabated it will lead to violence, in this case racial violence, the past has nothing to do with this. Now you are redefining what we where discussing, you equated white nationalists and black nationalists and now you're trying to say their goals are separate. This is not so, what goals could the current crop of black nationalists have that the current crop of white nationalism does not have, and how do these goals justify any hate based ideology?

Also what do you mean by traditionally? Most races have at some point in some culture owned slaves(There are also a few separate cultures who have colonized north Africa at least in the past, why ignore these?) , do you mean American traditions? Because I do believe it is safe to say those traditions are dead.


The below is in the context of the west
Women are no longer owned by men as a part of marriage, women have generally speaking the same economic rights as men, how many men do you think could be found that would say they owned a woman let alone their wife?

How does the past power differential justify any hate in the current environment?

I'm one of those horrible, horrible people who think women have been an oppressed group for centuries and still are, particularly in certain Non-Western cultures, which intelligent people are too PC to really criticise.

My problem isn't men, it's patriarchy. Yes, I think patriarchy exists and I have a huge problem with it. I'll get back in my time machine, now.

Last edited by puddingmouse on 25 Mar 2011, 8:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Nationalism- Let's look at two organisations:

1. The Nation of Islam : Has mainly an emancipatory and positive affect on young African- American youth empowering them with the self-discipline to rescue themselves from either death or prison.

2. The KKK- Hate filled nazi organisation that encourages its members to physically attack blacks and jews and spreads fear, hate and violent discord.

Same- same? I think not

women-Feminists don't hate men. They just want to liberate themselves from the continuing malignancy of a lingering patriarchy. The past plays a role in our present. Men dominate society. Look at business, politics or any strata of society.' Look at inequality of income where men are paid more both in general terms AND for doing the same job.

It's not horrible! Its right on sista!

You are once again changing the topic, you said that hate from womens groups was justified because of a power differential which does not exist. I asked where was this power differential and you describe a situation which no longer exists. As for the rest the pay gap has been explained as a result of the choices of women, single childless women get paid as much as men if not more, these women likely also negotiate their wages when hired. Both the general and specifics have been explained, in this very thread no less. Men do not dominate by any innate features of theirs or women's genetic traits.

I am not saying that racial or sexual interest groups are bad I am saying allowing hate to enter the ideologies of these groups in any form is bad. That such hate should be stamped out before it does harm. You have simply provided the most beneficial examples towards your argument which has nothing to do with what I originally contested.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebra_murders

Yeah funding the attorneys in the defense of blacks who take their anger out on innocent white people does a lot to empower em with self-discipline and keeping em away from prisons and graves. Never mind that angrily killing innocent people demonstrates a lack of discipline and that committing crimes like murder will either risk putting you in prison or getting the death penalty . You are out of your goddamn mind.

When you say 'the past plays a role in our present', I feel like you understand. People are in denial of so much that happened in the past and it's continuing effects, not just in this area of life, but in all areas.

It's not just about pay inequality, patriarchy lingers in so many ways. I can't really be bothered to state them now because I hate the hostility people have when I bring up this topic.

Even though I'm white, I've come to realise that racism towards non-whites is very real and is much more nasty than racism towards white people in Western societies. This is because it is based on lingering attitudes from a history of colonialism and slavery. I won't deny that racism towards whites exists, but I do see your point in that it's more understandable as a backlash.

I think I realised this because I imagined what it would be like to be a black person. Yes, an autistic person tried having a theory of mind!

I don't think enough men seriously think what it would be like to be a woman. I think they focus on how incredibly sensual it's supposed to be

I also think not enough women seriously consider what it means to be a woman. I don't really like being a woman, but I have thought about what it means to be one and I admit that the vulnerabilities that come with belonging to an historically oppressed group apply to me.

I have also thought about what it would be like to be a man, so it's not like I think men don't have their own issues.

Dear lord, you can't say there is a problem and then refuse to say what it is and expect it to be a compelling argument. What lingering inequalities are there that are not being addressed in some form?

Also what slights have you imagined for a black person? The only time I have been called something racial(to my face or that is to say, as far as I know) was during elementary school. I suppose I could be dense, or I suppose I could be an exception, but really it would be interesting what you have to say. The only non explicitly racist thing that I can see as arguably a sign of lingering racism is old(mostly white) people staring at my afro when I can't get a hair cut. But being uncomfortable with something isn't really racism, and I am not attached to my hair and prefer it cut anyways.

EDIT: I should also point out that the insult was from a black boy, who called me Oreo on account of me being mixed, don't worry he learned his manners.

It's late in the UK. I'm sorry for being vague. I wasn't aiming for a compelling argument, just an outline of my opinions and a bit of a rant.

I'm going to bed. I might post more on this later. I've always been told that I imagine problems that aren't there, or that I don't accept the rubbish parts of human nature enough. This may well be true about me. So that and the tiredness is why I didn't go into detail, but since you're interested, I might put a proper post together after sunrise.

I think the whole world will be a better place when people stop making their kids watch movies that have princesses and princes on them.

I wouldn't call that an outcome of feminism, though. He's simply a loving father. There were lots of loving fathers in the past. It's nothing new.