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Raising the Debt Ceiling

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ruveyn
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16 Jul 2011, 4:17 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Take the social safety net away, and those poor and working class people who have relied on it for so long may just develop a class consciousness as people had once had, and then the super rich may just find out what class warfare really is.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Class consciousness never quite happened in the United States. I am not a plutocrat but I tend to think of organized labor as a species of knuckle dragging primate. I refuse to join the Proles in a committed class conscious way. I despise them. I take great pride in my independence and I am arrogant and egotistical. Not the stuff of class conscious Proles. I detest joining organization and I am not the enthusiastic supporter of any organization or institution. In fact, I fear and loath enthusiasm. It is dangerous. And I am not the only one who thinks that way. I call no man Brother. At most I call him Cousin.

ruveyn



Jacoby
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16 Jul 2011, 5:32 am

The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies. … Increasing America’s debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Leadership means that ‘the buck stops here. Instead, Washington is shifting the burden of bad choices today onto the backs of our children and grandchildren. America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership. Americans deserve better.



Kraichgauer
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16 Jul 2011, 5:56 am

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Take the social safety net away, and those poor and working class people who have relied on it for so long may just develop a class consciousness as people had once had, and then the super rich may just find out what class warfare really is.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Class consciousness never quite happened in the United States. I am not a plutocrat but I tend to think of organized labor as a species of knuckle dragging primate. I refuse to join the Proles in a committed class conscious way. I despise them. I take great pride in my independence and I am arrogant and egotistical. Not the stuff of class conscious Proles. I detest joining organization and I am not the enthusiastic supporter of any organization or institution. In fact, I fear and loath enthusiasm. It is dangerous. And I am not the only one who thinks that way. I call no man Brother. At most I call him Cousin.

ruveyn


Okay, cuz.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



marshall
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16 Jul 2011, 11:16 am

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Take the social safety net away, and those poor and working class people who have relied on it for so long may just develop a class consciousness as people had once had, and then the super rich may just find out what class warfare really is.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Class consciousness never quite happened in the United States. I am not a plutocrat but I tend to think of organized labor as a species of knuckle dragging primate. I refuse to join the Proles in a committed class conscious way. I despise them. I take great pride in my independence and I am arrogant and egotistical. Not the stuff of class conscious Proles. I detest joining organization and I am not the enthusiastic supporter of any organization or institution. In fact, I fear and loath enthusiasm. It is dangerous. And I am not the only one who thinks that way. I call no man Brother. At most I call him Cousin.

ruveyn

If everyone operated under your mindset we would all be knuckle dragging primates beating each other to death with clubs. I'm sorry but you don't have all that to back up your arrogance and egotism. You aren't even that bright, cuz. There are smarter people born in slums all around the world more worthy of your entitlement complex than you.



visagrunt
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16 Jul 2011, 11:58 am

ruveyn wrote:
Class consciousness never quite happened in the United States.


I think you are well wide of the mark on that one. I live in a monarchy and my society is more egalitarian than yours. Now, I will grant your that your class structure admits of more fluidity than the European structures that predated it, but no one can tell me that Americans are not class concious.

How much paper, ink and bandwidth is spent on the cult of personality every single day in the United States? How many "legacies" are holding places in top schools and undergraduate programs?

Quote:
I am not a plutocrat but I tend to think of organized labor as a species of knuckle dragging primate.


Isn't that a bit like saying, "I'm not genocidal maniac, but I tend to think of Bosnian muslims as sub-human?" Hyperbole makes for a lovely figure of speech, but it also opens you up to similarly excessive replies.

Quote:
I refuse to join the Proles in a committed class conscious way. I despise them. I take great pride in my independence and I am arrogant and egotistical. Not the stuff of class conscious Proles. I detest joining organization and I am not the enthusiastic supporter of any organization or institution. In fact, I fear and loath enthusiasm. It is dangerous. And I am not the only one who thinks that way. I call no man Brother. At most I call him Cousin.

ruveyn


Here's where we can find common ground. I do believe in freedom of association. As a union member, I do believe in the right of my colleagues to withhold their fees and divert them to another, arm's length purpose. I also respect their right to refuse to join by taking their labour to another workplace.


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Kraichgauer
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16 Jul 2011, 2:16 pm

Not an egotist or plutocrat?
I'm not a gynecologist, but I play one in my back shed.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



zer0netgain
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16 Jul 2011, 5:21 pm

ruveyn wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
If a man with a dozen armed guards is surrounded by an angry mob, and that mob promise safety to the guards if they walk away, what do you think those guards will do?

)


If the have enough ammo and guns they will open fire. And there never will be such mobs in the U.S.A.. it is a cultural anomaly. U.S. people take an enormous amount of sh*t and injustice from within the country. If the black folk of America never became Mau Mau what do you expect from the white folk?

ruveyn


A fair point, and MUCH is being done to pacify white America so that they won't turn to violence. American society (perhaps all Western society) is a grant experiment in behavioral control. However, when people have nothing left to lose, things get ugly. The whole reason unemployment benefits were extended how many times beyond what the UI laws provide for?....To keep the unemployed from turning violent over how more and more jobs are being lost and sent overseas. If government let things follow their natural progression, we'd be in deep do do overnight and the people would revolt.

Let the "crash and burn" happen slowly and push blame on anyone but those responsible and you'd be amazed how people can be conditioned to accept it as okay.



marshall
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16 Jul 2011, 6:15 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
If a man with a dozen armed guards is surrounded by an angry mob, and that mob promise safety to the guards if they walk away, what do you think those guards will do?

)


If the have enough ammo and guns they will open fire. And there never will be such mobs in the U.S.A.. it is a cultural anomaly. U.S. people take an enormous amount of sh*t and injustice from within the country. If the black folk of America never became Mau Mau what do you expect from the white folk?

ruveyn


A fair point, and MUCH is being done to pacify white America so that they won't turn to violence. American society (perhaps all Western society) is a grant experiment in behavioral control. However, when people have nothing left to lose, things get ugly. The whole reason unemployment benefits were extended how many times beyond what the UI laws provide for?....To keep the unemployed from turning violent over how more and more jobs are being lost and sent overseas. If government let things follow their natural progression, we'd be in deep do do overnight and the people would revolt.

Let the "crash and burn" happen slowly and push blame on anyone but those responsible and you'd be amazed how people can be conditioned to accept it as okay.


Maybe nobody is responsible. Maybe it's simply the end of the 60 year reign of economic supremacy for the good ole US of A. Corporations are going to move away because we're no longer top dog in the world economy. If the average living standards and level of consumption have to come down, we might as well try to equalize the share of pain somewhat. Yet that is exactly what the conservatives and libertarians rail against. If the poor have to bear too big of a burden we are in some deep s**t. I don't see how protectionism or going to a gold standard are going to save us. At this point it's a matter of choosing the lesser poison. As much as people hate inflation, there are even worse predicaments.



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16 Jul 2011, 7:04 pm

marshall wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
zer0netgain wrote:
If a man with a dozen armed guards is surrounded by an angry mob, and that mob promise safety to the guards if they walk away, what do you think those guards will do?

)


If the have enough ammo and guns they will open fire. And there never will be such mobs in the U.S.A.. it is a cultural anomaly. U.S. people take an enormous amount of sh*t and injustice from within the country. If the black folk of America never became Mau Mau what do you expect from the white folk?

ruveyn


A fair point, and MUCH is being done to pacify white America so that they won't turn to violence. American society (perhaps all Western society) is a grant experiment in behavioral control. However, when people have nothing left to lose, things get ugly. The whole reason unemployment benefits were extended how many times beyond what the UI laws provide for?....To keep the unemployed from turning violent over how more and more jobs are being lost and sent overseas. If government let things follow their natural progression, we'd be in deep do do overnight and the people would revolt.

Let the "crash and burn" happen slowly and push blame on anyone but those responsible and you'd be amazed how people can be conditioned to accept it as okay.


Maybe nobody is responsible. Maybe it's simply the end of the 60 year reign of economic supremacy for the good ole US of A. Corporations are going to move away because we're no longer top dog in the world economy. If the average living standards and level of consumption have to come down, we might as well try to equalize the share of pain somewhat. Yet that is exactly what the conservatives and libertarians rail against. If the poor have to bear too big of a burden we are in some deep sh**. I don't see how protectionism or going to a gold standard are going to save us. At this point it's a matter of choosing the lesser poison. As much as people hate inflation, there are even worse predicaments.


Companies are probably going to be leaving because of Obama administration's disregard for the rule of law. Look at the Chrysler Bondholders for example.



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16 Jul 2011, 7:28 pm

visagrunt wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Class consciousness never quite happened in the United States.


I think you are well wide of the mark on that one. I live in a monarchy and my society is more egalitarian than yours. Now, I will grant your that your class structure admits of more fluidity than the European structures that predated it, but no one can tell me that Americans are not class concious.

How much paper, ink and bandwidth is spent on the cult of personality every single day in the United States? How many "legacies" are holding places in top schools and undergraduate programs?

There's a difference between class structure and class consciousness. Probably about 80% of Americans think that they're 'middle class,' and most people still think that the US is a pure meritocracy - despite, as you describe, a profound lack of actual equality and one of the lowest rates of upward mobility in the western world.



ruveyn
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16 Jul 2011, 7:37 pm

marshall wrote:
Maybe nobody is responsible. Maybe it's simply the end of the 60 year reign of economic supremacy for the good ole US of A. Corporations are going to move away because we're no longer top dog in the world economy. If the average living standards and level of consumption have to come down, we might as well try to equalize the share of pain somewhat. Yet that is exactly what the conservatives and libertarians rail against. If the poor have to bear too big of a burden we are in some deep sh**. I don't see how protectionism or going to a gold standard are going to save us. At this point it's a matter of choosing the lesser poison. As much as people hate inflation, there are even worse predicaments.


It is entirely possible that the U.S. has shot its wad economically. It happened to Britain which at one time owned 1/4 of the planet Earth. There is no reason why it cannot happen to the United States.

ruveyn



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16 Jul 2011, 8:01 pm

LKL wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Class consciousness never quite happened in the United States.


I think you are well wide of the mark on that one. I live in a monarchy and my society is more egalitarian than yours. Now, I will grant your that your class structure admits of more fluidity than the European structures that predated it, but no one can tell me that Americans are not class concious.

How much paper, ink and bandwidth is spent on the cult of personality every single day in the United States? How many "legacies" are holding places in top schools and undergraduate programs?

There's a difference between class structure and class consciousness. Probably about 80% of Americans think that they're 'middle class,' and most people still think that the US is a pure meritocracy - despite, as you describe, a profound lack of actual equality and one of the lowest rates of upward mobility in the western world.


Riiightt.....

Explains why the majority of millionaires in this country are FIRST GENERATION.



pandabear
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16 Jul 2011, 8:19 pm

A million dollars really isn't a lot of money any more.



ruveyn
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16 Jul 2011, 8:21 pm

pandabear wrote:
A million dollars really isn't a lot of money any more.


I would gladly receive such a pittance. At my age it would last me for the rest of my life.

ruveyn



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16 Jul 2011, 9:04 pm

pandabear wrote:
A million dollars really isn't a lot of money any more.


Of course it isn't due to Obama and the Democrats' fiscal policies of tax and spend that makes George W. Bush look extremely frugal.



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16 Jul 2011, 10:49 pm

pandabear wrote:
A million dollars really isn't a lot of money any more.

It's still substantially more than most people have, so it proves Inuyasha's point about upward mobility.