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LKL
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18 Jul 2011, 3:02 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
It means that if you don't get what it is supposed to mean, it is because you were born with such privilege that you are completely unaware of what is it to be discriminated against. Good for you, but try not to touch any of these topics as if you knew what you were talking about cause it makes you look like a bigot whereas you are just clueless about reality, and I know that it is not your fault that you are clueless about it because discrimination is something you have never really actually experienced, so it is quite easy for a person like you to feel that the other side is trying to take stuff away of you that you feel entitled to have. Statements like "gays asking for more protection than everyone else" are really telling.

And it sounds like you have some pretty big fantasies about how much the 'haves' actually have. That and I think, being an aspie site, pretty much anyone here has at least some idea of what its like to be persecuted. The notion that there are good'ol'boy country club aspies behind every conservative opinion is a little far out, albeit I understand - it's insulating to the beliefs that some people need to have about those who disagree with them.

The 'good old boy' factor that applies to male aspies is that they are acknowledged to exist. Girls have a hard time being diagnosed, even if they show the same symptoms as their diagnosed brothers.
The laws are currenly still made almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still interpreted almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still enforced almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.

Until that changes, you won't get a hell of a lot of sympathy when you whine about how 'men don't have enough rights.'



techstepgenr8tion
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18 Jul 2011, 3:15 pm

LKL wrote:
The 'good old boy' factor that applies to male aspies is that they are acknowledged to exist. Girls have a hard time being diagnosed, even if they show the same symptoms as their diagnosed brothers.
The laws are currenly still made almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still interpreted almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still enforced almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.

Until that changes, you won't get a hell of a lot of sympathy when you whine about how 'men don't have enough rights.'

You're still talking about it like its zero sum or that someone who's for men's rights or clarification of our undstanding of male nature or needs is for these things 'as opposed to' women's rights or minority rights. That's what's not making any sense.


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YippySkippy
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18 Jul 2011, 3:21 pm

What specific rights are men seeking?
There are no civil rights denied to men on the basis of their gender, as far as I am aware.
The movement seems somewhat nonsensical.
The only rights movement that seems to have a concrete goal today is the gay rights movement. Those people actually ARE discriminated against under the law.



Ancalagon
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18 Jul 2011, 7:01 pm

LKL wrote:
The laws are currenly still made almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still interpreted almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still enforced almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.

I'm almost certain that this is all false, unless you understand 'almost exclusively' to mean something that nobody else does.

Quote:
Until that changes, you won't get a hell of a lot of sympathy when you whine about how 'men don't have enough rights.'

People have a right to ask to be treated fairly, even if there are other people somewhere who have it worse.


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techstepgenr8tion
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18 Jul 2011, 7:13 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
People have a right to ask to be treated fairly, even if there are other people somewhere who have it worse.

Ideally as well people wanted to be understood for who they are and treated correctly for who they are (ie. justly). I think anytime a group is running into a situation where their identity is being attacked they need to stand up and clarify definitions and terms, especially who they are on their own terms. The men's movement pushes the notion that we need as much introspect into male nature as we do female nature for similar reasons - to cut the BS and mythology and better succeed in our own lives, not in taking from others but in being strong adults, role models, etc.


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Raptor
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18 Jul 2011, 9:16 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Vexcalibur
Quote:
It takes a heterosexual white man to be so clueless about what is it to "have no rights at all".

WTF is that supposed to mean?
It means that if you don't get what it is supposed to mean, it is because you were born with such privilege that you are completely unaware of what is it to be discriminated against. Good for you, but try not to touch any of these topics as if you knew what you were talking about cause it makes you look like a bigot whereas you are just clueless about reality, and I know that it is not your fault that you are clueless about it because discrimination is something you have never really actually experienced, so it is quite easy for a person like you to feel that the other side is trying to take stuff away of you that you feel entitled to have. Statements like "gays asking for more protection than everyone else" are really telling.



Me privileged?? Like techstepgenr8tion said, growing up and living with Asperger’s is to know some sort of discrimination and some know it worse than others.
You don’t have to be of color, gay, or be a woman to know discrimination and discrimination is still discrimination.
I don’t believe in hate crimes and special protection above what the average citizen gets…PERIOD.
Look in the mirror before you call anyone else clueless.
People like you throw labels like bigot, homophobe, and intolerant at anything that opposes their beliefs in the hopes it’ll shut them up. By now you should know that it doesn’t work with me.
Besides, being called a bigot by you is a compliment so thank you!



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18 Jul 2011, 9:46 pm

LKL wrote:
"Not long enough" = less than a decade? How old are you?


Old enough to have grown up and completed my post-grad studies.

LKL wrote:
If you don't think changing the laws to reflect equality was good enough, what would you propose?


I just want the political activism out of divorce courts. One can set the regulations as tightly as one wants, so long as there are people with a predisposition interpreting them, the situation will continue. In the end, the situation will continue until there is political pressure based on public pressure to kick those people out. In my case all that was needed was for someone to talk to the local police officer (small town), no one did and the system was not interested in it.


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18 Jul 2011, 9:49 pm

Raptor wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Vexcalibur
Quote:
It takes a heterosexual white man to be so clueless about what is it to "have no rights at all".

WTF is that supposed to mean?
It means that if you don't get what it is supposed to mean, it is because you were born with such privilege that you are completely unaware of what is it to be discriminated against. Good for you, but try not to touch any of these topics as if you knew what you were talking about cause it makes you look like a bigot whereas you are just clueless about reality, and I know that it is not your fault that you are clueless about it because discrimination is something you have never really actually experienced, so it is quite easy for a person like you to feel that the other side is trying to take stuff away of you that you feel entitled to have. Statements like "gays asking for more protection than everyone else" are really telling.



Me privileged?? Like techstepgenr8tion said, growing up and living with Asperger’s is to know some sort of discrimination and some know it worse than others.
You don’t have to be of color, gay, or be a woman to know discrimination and discrimination is still discrimination.
I don’t believe in hate crimes and special protection above what the average citizen gets…PERIOD.
Look in the mirror before you call anyone else clueless.
People like you throw labels like bigot, homophobe, and intolerant at anything that opposes their beliefs in the hopes it’ll shut them up. By now you should know that it doesn’t work with me.
Besides, being called a bigot by you is a compliment so thank you!


Agreed.

This is why I consider leftists that preach tolerance are the most intolerant people one can meet, aside from religious radicals that run around chopping people's heads off.



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18 Jul 2011, 10:27 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Vexcalibur
Quote:
It takes a heterosexual white man to be so clueless about what is it to "have no rights at all".

WTF is that supposed to mean?
It means that if you don't get what it is supposed to mean, it is because you were born with such privilege that you are completely unaware of what is it to be discriminated against. Good for you, but try not to touch any of these topics as if you knew what you were talking about cause it makes you look like a bigot whereas you are just clueless about reality, and I know that it is not your fault that you are clueless about it because discrimination is something you have never really actually experienced, so it is quite easy for a person like you to feel that the other side is trying to take stuff away of you that you feel entitled to have. Statements like "gays asking for more protection than everyone else" are really telling.


You don't see how claiming his race(and sex) makes him ignorant and/or incapable of certain knowledge is a problem?



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18 Jul 2011, 11:54 pm

LKL wrote:
The laws are currenly still made almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still interpreted almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still enforced almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.

Until that changes, you won't get a hell of a lot of sympathy when you whine about how 'men don't have enough rights.'

In the words of Justice Antonin Scalia, "It is hard to consider women a 'discrete and insular minority', unable to employ the 'political processes ordinarily to be relied upon' when they constitute a majority of the electorate. And the suggestion that they are incapable of exerting that political power smacks of the same paternalism that the Court so roundly condemns."

In other words, women make up the largest group of eligible voters, so there is no reason to treat them as a protected minority because they have the numbers to make changes if they are ever inclined to get off their asses and dominate an election rather than b***h about it for the last 40-50 years.


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19 Jul 2011, 12:04 am

ikorack wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Vexcalibur
Quote:
It takes a heterosexual white man to be so clueless about what is it to "have no rights at all".

WTF is that supposed to mean?
It means that if you don't get what it is supposed to mean, it is because you were born with such privilege that you are completely unaware of what is it to be discriminated against. Good for you, but try not to touch any of these topics as if you knew what you were talking about cause it makes you look like a bigot whereas you are just clueless about reality, and I know that it is not your fault that you are clueless about it because discrimination is something you have never really actually experienced, so it is quite easy for a person like you to feel that the other side is trying to take stuff away of you that you feel entitled to have. Statements like "gays asking for more protection than everyone else" are really telling.


You don't see how claiming his race(and sex) makes him ignorant and/or incapable of certain knowledge is a problem?


ikorack he probably doesn't...



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19 Jul 2011, 12:08 am

Ancalagon wrote:
Until that changes, you won't get a hell of a lot of sympathy when you whine about how 'men don't have enough rights.'


An injustice is an injustice; the same axe that deprives a woman of her rights looks exactly the same as the one that falls on a man.... especially to the person on the receiving end. If a bunch of rich white male migrants didn't throw a hissy fit over taxes then there would be no US Constitution. The excuse that 'many people have it worse' was not convincing then and has not improved with age.


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Ancalagon
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19 Jul 2011, 12:14 am

91 wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
Until that changes, you won't get a hell of a lot of sympathy when you whine about how 'men don't have enough rights.'


An injustice is an injustice; the same axe that deprives a woman of her rights looks exactly the same as the one that falls on a man.... especially to the person on the receiving end. If a bunch of rich white male migrants didn't throw a hissy fit over taxes then there would be no US Constitution. The excuse that 'many people have it worse' was not convincing then and has not improved with age.

It was actually LKL with that original quote.

Not a big deal, just pointing it out, since I also disagree with the original quote.


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LKL
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19 Jul 2011, 1:56 am

Ancalagon wrote:
LKL wrote:
The laws are currenly still made almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still interpreted almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still enforced almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.

I'm almost certain that this is all false, unless you understand 'almost exclusively' to mean something that nobody else does.

What percentage of US presidents are women?
What percentage of US congresspeople and senators are women?
What percentage of US judges are women?
What percentage of US police and prosecutors are women?
What percentage of US financial power-brokers are women?
What percentage of US religious power-brokers are women?

Do you get my point yet?

Quote:
Quote:
Until that changes, you won't get a hell of a lot of sympathy when you whine about how 'men don't have enough rights.'

People have a right to ask to be treated fairly, even if there are other people somewhere who have it worse.

Yes, they do. My point is that men already have more than a 'fair' shake, if you consider rights a limited resource.



Last edited by LKL on 19 Jul 2011, 2:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

LKL
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19 Jul 2011, 1:59 am

John_Browning wrote:
LKL wrote:
The laws are currenly still made almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still interpreted almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.
The laws are currenly still enforced almost exclusively by men, just as they have been for all of recorded western history.

Until that changes, you won't get a hell of a lot of sympathy when you whine about how 'men don't have enough rights.'

In the words of Justice Antonin Scalia, "It is hard to consider women a 'discrete and insular minority', unable to employ the 'political processes ordinarily to be relied upon' when they constitute a majority of the electorate. And the suggestion that they are incapable of exerting that political power smacks of the same paternalism that the Court so roundly condemns."

In other words, women make up the largest group of eligible voters, so there is no reason to treat them as a protected minority because they have the numbers to make changes if they are ever inclined to get off their asses and dominate an election rather than b***h about it for the last 40-50 years.

Oh, so you think that our elected officials always follow the will of the people, eh? The president does what he does because that's what the people who elected him want him to do? Congress and the senate likewise?



LKL
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19 Jul 2011, 2:05 am

91 wrote:
Ancalagon wrote:
Until that changes, you won't get a hell of a lot of sympathy when you whine about how 'men don't have enough rights.'


An injustice is an injustice; the same axe that deprives a woman of her rights looks exactly the same as the one that falls on a man.... especially to the person on the receiving end. If a bunch of rich white male migrants didn't throw a hissy fit over taxes then there would be no US Constitution. The excuse that 'many people have it worse' was not convincing then and has not improved with age.

My point is not that 'some people have it worse.' My point is that the Men's Rights movement is constantly screaming, 'Women have gotten too many rights! We men have to take some back!' is not an accurate statement in any rational measurement of balance.

If you frame it as something other than a zero sum game - 'women suffered from unfair stereotypes in the past (for example, that their only role is as nurturers), and have succeeded in getting out from some of them; men would like to escape from some of their stereotypes (for example, that men cannot be nurturers) as well,' for instance, you wouldn't get many people arguing against you. I'd certainly agree to a statement like that.