Do you support Free Trade ?

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JWC
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11 Oct 2011, 2:21 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

Or mugging you. The Government's most basic bare bones role is the monopoly of force right? That's one less check and balance against corruption which is the same reason regulations and safety nets are necessary to some extent. And why do our taxes go towards the military, police, and courts? Because privatizing them exclusively would lead to corruption and to ensure every citizen is covered by them. Sounds a lot like the same rationale that justify safety nets and regulations right?

So my choices are:

1. The gov't takes my money (by force) and uses it to sustain the meager, miserable existence of those who are little more that human lice.

Or:

2. Get mugged by said human lice so they can sustain their meager, miserable existence.

If my choices are having my property taken by force by one group or having it taken by force by another, I choose the group that I can most easily shoot at.

JWC
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11 Oct 2011, 2:28 pm

91 wrote:

I will give you one last opportunity to clarify. Are you suggesting that a forum member kill themselves?

I'm not suggesting anything, just pointing out that you jumped to a conclusion and passed judgement based on an ambiguous statement.

91 wrote:

JWC wrote:

If your future depends on someone else, then is it really yours?

Of course; no man is an island. We all owe our success to one another in some way,

If you owe me for your success, then you need to pay up. I don't work for free.

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11 Oct 2011, 2:33 pm

JWC wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

3. Move to the wilderness where you pay no taxes. Most first world Governments prefer not to let the homeless die on their watch, but the social contract isn't stopping you from opting out of civilization. You don't have to worry about the big bad Men in Black putting a gun to your head for that. But then that would mean you would have to join a tribe in order to survive, which is also a society and means you would have to depend on others even more to live :idea:

.

The Government already takes your money by force to fund the military, police, and courts using the same rationale that justifies having social welfare and regulations. So if you want to be consistent, you either have both or none. Where's the logical congruity in having one but not the other?

JWC
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11 Oct 2011, 2:48 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

I already live in the wilderness. I was raised by wolves.

AceOfSpades wrote:

Government already takes your money by force to fund the military, police, and courts using the same rationale that justifies having social welfare and regulations. So if you want to be consistent, you either have both or none. Where's the logical congruity in having one but not the other?

Two wrongs make a right?

AceOfSpades
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11 Oct 2011, 2:59 pm

JWC wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

I already live in the wilderness. I was raised by wolves.

Cool story bro. You depended on those wolves for your survival right? It sure as hell isn't interdependence unless you're even too much of a bootstrapper for that.

JWC wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Two wrongs make a right?

Wait taxes funding the military, police, and courts is a wrong? Are you an anarchist or a minarchist? Hahaha I love how you're telling me about right and wrong when you think it's ok for the homeless to die since they're nothing but human lice. You're not really in much of a position to talk about morals.

Abgal64
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11 Oct 2011, 3:39 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

Two wrongs make a right?

I have the same question AceOfSpades does: What is your political ideology? Are you an anarchocapitalist? That is what you seem like to me from your posts.

But make no mistake: I am not going to be led off topic by your statements, such as the silly one about being raised by wolves or the one that I am quite sure was intended to shock by calling homeless people "human lice." Do not attempt to lead me away from the topic of economics any more or I will continue to be skeptical of your ability to defend your beliefs in this debate.

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JWC
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11 Oct 2011, 3:50 pm

Abgal64 wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Two wrongs make a right?

I have the same question AceOfSpades does: What is your political ideology? Are you an anarchocapitalist? That is what you seem like to me from your posts.

But make no mistake: I am not going to be led off topic by your statements, such as the silly one about being raised by wolves or the one that I am quite sure was intended to shock by calling homeless people "human lice." Do not attempt to lead me away from the topic of economics any more or I will continue to be skeptical of your ability to defend your beliefs in this debate.

Slavery will continue to exist until all interactions between individuals are founded in the rule of voluntary association. The initiation of force is immoral. You pick the label.

JakobVirgil
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11 Oct 2011, 4:57 pm

JWC wrote:

Abgal64 wrote:

AceOfSpades wrote:

Two wrongs make a right?

Slavery will continue to exist until all interactions between individuals are founded in the rule of voluntary association. The initiation of force is immoral. You pick the label.

Can a country exist as a voluntary association?
If part of that association is the paying of dues would that be slavery?
i.e. can you by contract agree to pay taxes?
If a voluntary association is using a bit of earth can they cause others to leave it involuntarily?

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JWC
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11 Oct 2011, 5:11 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Can a country exist as a voluntary association?

Can a country exist without slavery?

JakobVirgil wrote:

part of that association is the paying of dues would that be slavery?
i.e. can you by contract agree to pay taxes?

In a society based on voluntary association, would taxation be considered a morally viable option?

JakobVirgil wrote:

a voluntary association is using a bit of earth can they cause others to leave it involuntarily?

If they do not own said bit of earth, aren't they violating the principle of voluntary association by occupying it without permission?

JakobVirgil
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11 Oct 2011, 5:25 pm

JWC wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Can a country exist as a voluntary association?

Can a country exist without slavery?

JakobVirgil wrote:

part of that association is the paying of dues would that be slavery?
i.e. can you by contract agree to pay taxes?

In a society based on voluntary association, would taxation be considered a morally viable option?

JakobVirgil wrote:

a voluntary association is using a bit of earth can they cause others to leave it involuntarily?

If they do not own said bit of earth, aren't they violating the principle of voluntary association by occupying it without permission?

You can answer your restatements of my questions if you are interested.

on the third question your counter question misses my intention.
lets say a group of six folk are in a room 5 of them form a voluntary association can the force the other to leave?
Ownership is a social construct (a fiction) is it one that is necessarily for your society?

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We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

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JWC
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11 Oct 2011, 5:30 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

JWC wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Can a country exist as a voluntary association?

Can a country exist without slavery?

JakobVirgil wrote:

part of that association is the paying of dues would that be slavery?
i.e. can you by contract agree to pay taxes?

In a society based on voluntary association, would taxation be considered a morally viable option?

JakobVirgil wrote:

a voluntary association is using a bit of earth can they cause others to leave it involuntarily?

If they do not own said bit of earth, aren't they violating the principle of voluntary association by occupying it without permission?

If ownership is a fiction, then I'll be by later on to pick up your...correction...my car. Since you have no more right to it than I do, you won't have any justification to stop me.

JakobVirgil
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11 Oct 2011, 5:36 pm

JWC wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

JWC wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Can a country exist as a voluntary association?

Can a country exist without slavery?

JakobVirgil wrote:

part of that association is the paying of dues would that be slavery?
i.e. can you by contract agree to pay taxes?

In a society based on voluntary association, would taxation be considered a morally viable option?

JakobVirgil wrote:

a voluntary association is using a bit of earth can they cause others to leave it involuntarily?

If they do not own said bit of earth, aren't they violating the principle of voluntary association by occupying it without permission?

If ownership is a fiction, then I'll be by later on to pick up your...correction...my car. Since you have no more right to it than I do, you won't have any justification to stop me.

I don't have a car.
Of course ownership is a social construct
A necessary one for this system is it necessary for yours?
as a social construct it ultimately can only be defended with violence.
You come to take my car but can't find the keys.
So you come to take them from me we scuffle . . .
there is nothing more real about property then there is the church of England.

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?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

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JWC
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12 Oct 2011, 5:13 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

I don't have a car.
Of course ownership is a social construct
A necessary one for this system is it necessary for yours?
as a social construct it ultimately can only be defended with violence.
You come to take my car but can't find the keys.
So you come to take them from me we scuffle . . .
there is nothing more real about property then there is the church of England.

The concept of ownership is a very real social construct. You are correct in the sense that it is not metaphysically given. It is a man-made truth, but a truth, no less. The concept of ownership is prevents the necessity to defend your possessions with violence. It allows us to live in a civilized society.

JakobVirgil
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12 Oct 2011, 5:50 pm

JWC wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Sure it is a fiction we have decided to agree on.
If we decide to agree on the fiction that we all have an obligation to each other it would be equally true.
If the fiction of property does not suit my interests then why and how am I obligated to observe it?
Only by force and coercion?
Now possession is real I can really have things in my hot little hand.
But to own something hundreds of miles away or something abstract like a corporation.
requires that others play along with that construct.
And really why should I be expected to play along with something that is against my personal interest?
Because Ayn Rand or Jesus told me it was evil?
Cuz Ayn told me Jesus was evil.
and if Jesus ever met Ms. Rand I am sure he would return the complement.

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?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/

JWC
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12 Oct 2011, 7:47 pm

JakobVirgil wrote:

Check your premises.

JakobVirgil
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12 Oct 2011, 8:12 pm

JWC wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

Check your premises.

Yeah, that is what I am saying, check your premises.
Our constructions may be logical but our premises,
our axioms are invariably pulled out of our collective
Asses.

Is there a greater reason that I am required to accept property rights as axiomatic
than "that is the basis for culture" when that is assuredly does not hold up to
cross cultural analysis?

When I read atlas shrugged I learned 2 things.
1. I have no obligation to a society that does not uphold my values
(for me western capitalism prolly not her intent).
2. Ayn is a short sighted shrill woman with no sense of human nature.

_________________
?We must not look at goblin men,
We must not buy their fruits:
Who knows upon what soil they fed
Their hungry thirsty roots??

http://jakobvirgil.blogspot.com/

Last edited by JakobVirgil on 12 Oct 2011, 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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