Is genocide justified when it comes to psychopaths?

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Should psychopaths be eliminated?
No, they are people too 83%  83%  [ 24 ]
Yes, they are dangerous and worthless 17%  17%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 29

eigerpere
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26 Feb 2012, 9:15 pm

MCalavera wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Like pretty much all mental disorders and ultimately all human behavior, psychopathy has both a genetic and an environmental component. Nobody is born to be bad; society is always complicit in the making of a psychopath. We only have ourselves to blame.

Think of pit bull terriers. Their genetic predisposition for aggressivity and mindless violence makes them the psychopaths of the canine world. But if pit bulls are raised in a healthy, loving environment, they grow up to be child-friendly lap dogs. Conversely, it is utterly possible to turn a docile and family-friendly breed into a killing machine. It just takes a little more effort. Very little behavior is genetically predetermined.


That sounds like the abuse excuse. I come from that kind of environment in the worst way and know personally that it has nothing to do with it. People are born the way they are and society isn't responsible for making them that way.


Psychological studies and findings disagree with your absolute statement.


I honestly don't care. :)


You should've said that from the very beginning.


Psychological findings and studies are proven inaccurate all the time and they get more funds in order to make new findings, etc. Clinicians get it wrong often and a finding doesn't necessarily prove something. It's just a study and a finding.



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26 Feb 2012, 9:16 pm

eigerpere wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
Environment obviously has an effect on everyone but don't believe it makes people what they are when it comes to violent crimes. We just have to disagree and move on.


Then how do you explain the higher incidence of violent crime in countries with higher levels of poverty? Are impoverished ethnic minorities genetically programmed to be criminals?


Where are your statistic? Why don't you post it here so I can have a look.


Here is a great article on the subject: http://economics.fundamentalfinance.com ... ycrime.php

Quote:
he estimated coefficient of poverty now yields crime-poverty elasticity. The ln(Total Crime) model shows that holding the other variables constant, a 1% increase in poverty leads to a 2.16% increase in total crime. This coefficient is significant at the 0.6% level. The ln(Violent Crime) model shows that a 1% increase in poverty leads to a 2.57% increase in violent crime and is significant only at the 5.1% level.

The results of this analysis are consistent with other studies that have been conducted by economists, for example:

[Studies] found that homicides were disproportionately concentrated in areas of poverty. Three of these (by Bullock [1955], Beasley and Antunes [1974], and Mladenka and Hill [1976]) studied violent crime in Houston. Like Shaw and McKay [1969], each reported high correlations between violent crime rates and measures of poverty. Areas in Houston with high rates of violent crime were also characterized by high population density and a high proportion of black residents. (Short 51)

These studies as well as the above analysis show that poverty is correlated with violent crimes - increased poverty leads to increased violent crime.

Another study by Jens Ludwig, Greg J. Duncan, and Paul Hirschfield also that teens committed more violent crimes when they lived in high poverty areas than when they were relocated to low poverty areas. “The offer to relocate families from high- to very low-poverty neighborhoods (census tracts with poverty rates below 10 percent) reduces juvenile arrests for violent offenses on the order of 30 to 50 percent of the arrest rate for controls” (Ludwig 13).


Another statistical analysis can be found here: http://mtbi.asu.edu/downloads/Document8.pdf



eigerpere
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26 Feb 2012, 9:17 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
That sounds like the abuse excuse. I come from that kind of environment in the worst way and know personally that it has nothing to do with it. People are born the way they are and society isn't responsible for making them that way.


Hooray! For whatever reasons, you've managed to rise above the neglect and/or brutality of your upbringing. Awesome. Guess what? That doesn't happen for everyone, and pitilessly writing them off just because you happen to be a success story is both heartless and willfully cruel.


You don't know what you're talking about.



eigerpere
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26 Feb 2012, 9:20 pm

Why don't you devote you life to serving the psychopaths in our society then and stop badgering me with your campaign. If you have so much empathy and concern, put it to good use elsewhere.



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26 Feb 2012, 9:21 pm

eigerpere wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
That sounds like the abuse excuse. I come from that kind of environment in the worst way and know personally that it has nothing to do with it. People are born the way they are and society isn't responsible for making them that way.


Hooray! For whatever reasons, you've managed to rise above the neglect and/or brutality of your upbringing. Awesome. Guess what? That doesn't happen for everyone, and pitilessly writing them off just because you happen to be a success story is both heartless and willfully cruel.


You don't know what you're talking about.


Really? Please, do elaborate. From where I'm sitting, one side of the debate (the 'nurture' side) has evidence backing it, whereas your side only has insulting statements (see above) and pitiless dismissals. By all means, please rationalize your viewpoint that society is perfect and everyone who doesn't fit in is born broken and should be excised.



eigerpere
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26 Feb 2012, 9:22 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
That sounds like the abuse excuse. I come from that kind of environment in the worst way and know personally that it has nothing to do with it. People are born the way they are and society isn't responsible for making them that way.


Hooray! For whatever reasons, you've managed to rise above the neglect and/or brutality of your upbringing. Awesome. Guess what? That doesn't happen for everyone, and pitilessly writing them off just because you happen to be a success story is both heartless and willfully cruel.


You don't know what you're talking about.


Really? Please, do elaborate. From where I'm sitting, one side of the debate (the 'nurture' side) has evidence backing it, whereas your side only has insulting statements (see above) and pitiless dismissals. By all means, please rationalize your viewpoint that society is perfect and everyone who doesn't fit in is born broken and should be excised.


Like I said above, get a life elsewhere.



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26 Feb 2012, 9:25 pm

eigerpere wrote:
Psychological findings and studies are proven inaccurate all the time and they get more funds in order to make new findings, etc. Clinicians get it wrong often and a finding doesn't necessarily prove something. It's just a study and a finding.


Biologists, geneticists and ethologists have found the same though. The environment literally turns genes on or off. Our brains interact with the environment as well. What we commonly call instinct is in fact so-called prepared learning, i.e. readily available neurological pathways that are potentiated (activated) by environmental factors.

That doesn't absolve criminals from their actions, but it means that we can prevent crime by altering social conditions such as poverty, inequality, and dysfunctional family environments.



MCalavera
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26 Feb 2012, 9:26 pm

eigerpere wrote:
Psychological findings and studies are proven inaccurate all the time and they get more funds in order to make new findings, etc. Clinicians get it wrong often and a finding doesn't necessarily prove something. It's just a study and a finding.


Except that it's not just one study or finding.



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26 Feb 2012, 9:27 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
That doesn't absolve criminals from their actions, but it means that we can prevent crime by altering social conditions such as poverty, inequality, and dysfunctional family environments.


This. A criminal's debt to society is between them, the government and their victims, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve the system in order to make this kind of crime obsolete. Y'know, so we can upgrade to purely white-collar crime and no one has to feel bad about locking them up.



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26 Feb 2012, 9:28 pm

eigerpere wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
That sounds like the abuse excuse. I come from that kind of environment in the worst way and know personally that it has nothing to do with it. People are born the way they are and society isn't responsible for making them that way.


Hooray! For whatever reasons, you've managed to rise above the neglect and/or brutality of your upbringing. Awesome. Guess what? That doesn't happen for everyone, and pitilessly writing them off just because you happen to be a success story is both heartless and willfully cruel.


You don't know what you're talking about.


Really? Please, do elaborate. From where I'm sitting, one side of the debate (the 'nurture' side) has evidence backing it, whereas your side only has insulting statements (see above) and pitiless dismissals. By all means, please rationalize your viewpoint that society is perfect and everyone who doesn't fit in is born broken and should be excised.


Like I said above, get a life elsewhere.


So...you're giving up attempting to make a rational point? Or have I somehow managed to offend you beyond the capacity for thought?



eigerpere
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26 Feb 2012, 9:30 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
That doesn't absolve criminals from their actions, but it means that we can prevent crime by altering social conditions such as poverty, inequality, and dysfunctional family environments.


This. A criminal's debt to society is between them, the government and their victims, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to improve the system in order to make this kind of crime obsolete. Y'know, so we can upgrade to purely white-collar crime and no one has to feel bad about locking them up.


It isn't going to eradicate the problem no matter how much society tries to pick up the tab.



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26 Feb 2012, 9:35 pm

Speaking of picking up the tab: What about corporate entities that harm society and meet the criteria of psychopathy? Since corporations are legal persons, shouldn't the psychopaths among them be put out of their misery?



eigerpere
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26 Feb 2012, 9:37 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
eigerpere wrote:
Psychological findings and studies are proven inaccurate all the time and they get more funds in order to make new findings, etc. Clinicians get it wrong often and a finding doesn't necessarily prove something. It's just a study and a finding.


Biologists, geneticists and ethologists have found the same though. The environment literally turns genes on or off. Our brains interact with the environment as well. What we commonly call instinct is in fact so-called prepared learning, i.e. readily available neurological pathways that are potentiated (activated) by environmental factors.

That doesn't absolve criminals from their actions, but it means that we can prevent crime by altering social conditions such as poverty, inequality, and dysfunctional family environments.


Look, there is a lot we don't understand yet about the brain and how it works so until those are actual proven facts we are speculating and that's all any of this really amounts too. There are too many factors to consider and pushing your premise doesn't prove anything so give it a rest.



artrat
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26 Feb 2012, 9:40 pm

Wall street is run by sociopaths.


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eigerpere
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26 Feb 2012, 9:41 pm

CrazyCatLord wrote:
Speaking of picking up the tab: What about corporate entities that harm society and meet the criteria of psychopathy? Since corporations are legal persons, shouldn't the psychopaths among them be put out of their misery?


If you read this thread you would know that I don't agree with killing criminals, so why put me under attack?



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26 Feb 2012, 9:43 pm

eigerpere wrote:
CrazyCatLord wrote:
Speaking of picking up the tab: What about corporate entities that harm society and meet the criteria of psychopathy? Since corporations are legal persons, shouldn't the psychopaths among them be put out of their misery?


If you read this thread you would know that I don't agree with killing criminals, so why put me under attack?


That wasn't directed at you, but at the thread in general.