Mens Rights Movement
techstepgenr8tion
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Joined: 6 Feb 2005
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Gender: Male
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If that is their basis then they are simple hate mongers.
I would expect a legitimate men's rights movement to focus on things such as...
1. Right to be relieved of child support responsibilities upon confirmation of non-paternity.
2. Right to compensation for having paid child support to a child that was not his.
3. Right to paternity leave.
4. More resources for battered men.
And I would suspect they go about raising these issues without mentionings of feminist agendas.
There's no reason to polarize the issue of men's or women's rights if you have legitimate claims. Your claims should be able to stand on the fact that they are legitimate alone.
That's the problem though, 'activists' are usually anything but level-headed. Most people fighting the war against the universe of just staying strong, staying positive, and trying to better the world one person at a time - they won't be front and center on these types of things, which is sad but its the way human motivation tends to lead things out.
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Close to my home is Europe's largest women's hospital, am I ever going to see a men's hospital in my life time?
I would speculate that there are "Women's Hospitals" and not "Men's Hospitals" due to the fact that women have more body parts that pose health risks which fall under the category of specialty medicine, and the history of how medical needs were addressed with respect to these.
And additionally, someone apparently realized there was enough of a need to make such a hospital profitable.
Which exclusively male health issues to you envision a Men's Hospital addressing?
I'm willing to bet that where you live, women don't have less responsibilities, you just are blind to their responsibilities because they are not responsibilities that apply to you.
In other words, you do not really know what her job entails.
Concerning the military, some countries draft men and women equally. I'm personally not opposed to such things if a country is going to have a draft. If the human population hung on the verge of extinction and wars were still fought with hand to hand combat, I might be able to raise a valid argument as to why it would be better to send a man to war than a woman, but there are 7 billion people on this planet, most combat is done at a distance, and there are plenty of positions a woman can fill in the military, that would not compromise the objective.
As a feminist I support all genders with equality. I've even supported men who do not wish to go to war or be denied parental rights simply because of their gender not their actions. However every time I see men's rights, I'm seeing an awful lot of bashing on feminists as if every female is wanting priveledge rather than equality. Most of it or what their opinion on where a woman's place is in society makes me sick to my stomach. My family has had many males....alcholic and who have not worked. On the other hand many of the females have had to work and while they ain't all saints neither are the men but it is funny to see this gold digging stereotype still hyped to this day. My sister is having to take care of 3 children whom she rarely gets to see due to her long hours in work which makes very little as a nurse. Her divorced husband meanwhile doesn't work and his mom supports him. She gets no child support by him and our family feels this is wrong. You would think at least his mother, their grandmother, would at least be sympathetic. Anyway I've never been good with academia debates but I just thought I tell you my own personal thoughts about this issue. I use to be one of those females who shunned from the word feminist since I was taught by my own father who never supported my mother that it meant women hated men and in this day and age women want power over men. Then there is the biological debate that women get to leave their work when they're pregnant with a child, which btw none of my family has encountered and which among other reasons I'm not having children. Anyway it's interesting when people feel threatened especially in the West about the power of women. I don't like sexist women who think all men should be this or that just as I don't like men who think women the same. Not all of us fit so neatly into those gender pigeonholes that society or people put us in. We are people just like you and we also are capable of suffering if you didn't already learn history from discrimination in both work places and in our roles in families. Even my old old great great grandmother had to work but for much less than her husband.
Anyway just my 2 cents. I know this is a serious debate forum but I couldn't help but participate in my unprofessional way.
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~Delores O’Riordan
your points were well made, MissConstrue.
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Chipshorter
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Now is it an excuse for gender inequality of medical specialities? NO it does not! Its just a reason for sex discrimination.
General hospitals can deal with both gender specific medical specialities, why the need of "Women's Hospitials" in the first place?
A valid point if you have a private healthcare system (tho I live in a country with public healthcare), profitability/cost effectiveness is only a secondly goal to the primary goal of provision & improvement of healthcare. Are "women's hospitals" cost effective or a waste of money?
Andrology, Male Urology and Male Oncology off the top of my head. Probability male mental health
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Last edited by Chipshorter on 11 Mar 2012, 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sockpuppet posts removed.
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What I've found today is that masculists, as they sometimes call themselves, are the actual equal rights activists, whereas those who identify as feminists are simply female superiority advocates.
The people I've met who identified as feminists seemed, in further discussion, to adhere to ideas that were either outdated or completely false.
If it's equality that's wanted, women's rights should be cut back a bit and men's rights advanced, at least in many western societies.
At the moment, men are expected to show a type of respect they aren't expected to see returned even if they're not interested, then ask a woman out, then pay, then pay some more, then propose marriage, then pay some more, then provide, then have children only if the woman wants to. If it goes wrong, the woman usually gets to decide what happens, and the woman can decide to cut off the man's contact with his children.
He is expected, though, often with penalties when he fails, to meet financial demands in order to provide for children he's hardly allowed to even speak to.
Meanwhile, women are the subject of 'positive discrimination', which in essence means men are supposed to be refused jobs if a woman is anywhere near as qualified and applies.
If my government decides to reintroduce an active draft, they can tell all men to pick up a gun, or possibly a stick due to lack of material, and get a nice one-way trip to whatever barren hole our government's good friends in the United States decide to invade for oil. We can get some nice post-traumatic stress disorders and lost limbs, if we live at all. Women have the right to join the military, but they are not the subject of any such responsbilities.
Honestly, if I haven't already, I feel like burning that damn letter reminding me of my lack of refusal rights and handing the ashes to one of those self-proclaimed feminists. 'twould be the first time they saw such a letter.
On those matters, of course, people who want 'equal rights' for women are mindnumbingly quiet.
Women are apparently supposed to be equal (or, 'to change their position in the workplace, more equal') when it comes to rights, but 'different' when it comes to responsibilities.
^Women have responsibilities that men don't have. Think of everything that goes into maintaining a household and raising children, One of the main things I'm concerned about as a feminist is actually getting men more parental leave. I want to involve men in the lives of their children more. I believe that this will be one of the biggest things to ever happen that would erode patriarchy in society.
Also, please give me an example of these female supremacist feminists you have met.
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^^^i am starting to think that we simply don't exist. i keep reading posts that summarise what we supposedly must believe as feminists, but in spite of our protestations we are still being generalised into a nonexistent box. not sure why people are not listening to what we are actually saying.
them: "feminists want _X_"
us: "different feminists want different things. very few extremists want _X_, but most feminists (including me) want _Y_"
them: "feminists want _X_"
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Then why call it patriarchy? Why not call it the gender-role status quo or something? I know the reason, I think. It's the same reason that feminism is still called feminism. It's just inertia.
Here's how I see it. The project of earning women equal rights has morphed into a larger project of getting people to question gender roles and expectations. But the words which are used are pure baggage. It's true that many people "misunderstand" feminism, but it is crying out to be misunderstood.
There's a term gay-straight alliance which is a very good name. It makes it clear that we're all in it together, fighting against the status quo for the sake of all of us. Maybe feminism should be rebranded as "the male-female alliance against gender roles".
i really like that idea.
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Then why call it patriarchy? Why not call it the gender-role status quo or something? I know the reason, I think. It's the same reason that feminism is still called feminism. It's just inertia.
Here is why feminism is called feminism and patriarchy is called patriarchy:
1. Historical reasons, it's the same movement it has always been, so why change the name?
2. On a global scale, patriarchy is patriarchy. I wouldn't dare call it anything else in the context of some societies. The residue of patriarchy remains in Western society, which you can't deny was historically very patriarchal.
3. It's a system of power set up to privilege someone, this is not all men, but the most dominant ones. The Big Daddies. The patriarchs. Gender roles didn't just pop out of the aether.
4. Some issues are just about women. Some are just about men. That's why I'd support the existence of a men's movement if it didn't see itself at war with feminism.
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Zombies, zombies will tear us apart...again.
The people I've met who identified as feminists seemed, in further discussion, to adhere to ideas that were either outdated or completely false.
If it's equality that's wanted, women's rights should be cut back a bit and men's rights advanced, at least in many western societies.
At the moment, men are expected to show a type of respect they aren't expected to see returned even if they're not interested, then ask a woman out, then pay, then pay some more, then propose marriage, then pay some more, then provide, then have children only if the woman wants to. If it goes wrong, the woman usually gets to decide what happens, and the woman can decide to cut off the man's contact with his children.
He is expected, though, often with penalties when he fails, to meet financial demands in order to provide for children he's hardly allowed to even speak to.
Meanwhile, women are the subject of 'positive discrimination', which in essence means men are supposed to be refused jobs if a woman is anywhere near as qualified and applies.
If my government decides to reintroduce an active draft, they can tell all men to pick up a gun, or possibly a stick due to lack of material, and get a nice one-way trip to whatever barren hole our government's good friends in the United States decide to invade for oil. We can get some nice post-traumatic stress disorders and lost limbs, if we live at all. Women have the right to join the military, but they are not the subject of any such responsbilities.
Honestly, if I haven't already, I feel like burning that damn letter reminding me of my lack of refusal rights and handing the ashes to one of those self-proclaimed feminists. 'twould be the first time they saw such a letter.
On those matters, of course, people who want 'equal rights' for women are mindnumbingly quiet.
Women are apparently supposed to be equal (or, 'to change their position in the workplace, more equal') when it comes to rights, but 'different' when it comes to responsibilities.
I don't know where you get these blunt generalizations about women. I think it's interesting how you view women in general as a whole. Pretty sad because I've seen rather the opposite. My brother in law is not paying child support, does not want to take care of his kids, has no job and has gotten another girl pregnant. My sister is both working and supporting her children. I'm starting to wonder what your motivations are. Each case is different. My aunt pays child support for her daughter who lives with her real father. So it isn't as if only the man who btw I believe should have some responsibility after making the child, shouldn't support them in some way. Also I don't get where you think that every woman gets to choose whether or not to have children. If a man doesn't want a child, put on a damn condom! The same for women, take birth control pills. And isn't interesting if a woman is unable to care for her child in conception or wants a way to prevent from having children, she gets the most criticism? Men at least don't need to worry since it isn't them that has to carry a baby. Those damn feminists how dare they think they have any rights over their bodies or in work places. And why in the world should women vote? It isn't their place. Same crap different generation. And fyi I support men's rights but I don't support pure misogyny or the blunt and overwhelming untrue generalizations you have made.
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I live as I choose or I will not live at all.
~Delores O’Riordan
I think that if you put it like that, you are very vulnerable to Margaret Thatcher Syndrome, where you have to end up explaining how some women are members of the patriarchy, and end up sounding silly. Like all power structures, what you call the patriarchy exists in order to benefit itself, not in order to benefit men. Men benefit as an unintended side-effect.
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