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Eugenics: "Science" Gone Wrong

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iamnotaparakeet
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21 Mar 2012, 2:53 pm

Eugenics is the usage of scientific sounding excuses to commit murder or to otherwise reduce populations that are arbitrarily deemed "undesirable" and as such the whole notion is itself utterly undesirable.



Kraichgauer
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21 Mar 2012, 5:20 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Eugenics is the usage of scientific sounding excuses to commit murder or to otherwise reduce populations that are arbitrarily deemed "undesirable" and as such the whole notion is itself utterly undesirable.


My God! This is one of those rare occasions where you and I are in harmonious agreement! 8)

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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21 Mar 2012, 5:24 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Eugenics is the usage of scientific sounding excuses to commit murder or to otherwise reduce populations that are arbitrarily deemed "undesirable" and as such the whole notion is itself utterly undesirable.


Eugenics is applied biology. It is selective breeding to get a better product. Humans have been doing Eugenics with plants and animals for thousands of years. Virtually every food product we have in modern nations is the result of selective breeding and hybridization. If we can breed a better steer or a better dog, why not a better human?

ruveyn



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21 Mar 2012, 5:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Eugenics is the usage of scientific sounding excuses to commit murder or to otherwise reduce populations that are arbitrarily deemed "undesirable" and as such the whole notion is itself utterly undesirable.


Eugenics is applied biology. It is selective breeding to get a better product. Humans have been doing Eugenics with plants and animals for thousands of years. Virtually every food product we have in modern nations is the result of selective breeding and hybridization. If we can breed a better steer or a better dog, why not a better human?

ruveyn


A human being isn't a dog or a steer. We're something different. You yourself had said we're sentient beings; that alone gives even the most flawed of us rights. And while I know you don't believe in it, there is the notion of the soul - that immortal part of us that separates us from all other creatures. And where would eugenics end? How long would it take for someone to say that autistic individuals should be left out of the breeding pool? And no, I don't buy the notion that someone would say, "While I'll be - people with Asperger's are superior, let's put them to work!". We'd be just as in much danger as people with Down's Syndrome.
And beside, the most wonderful thing about human beings is, while we're all profoundly f****d up, we're also amazingly incredible. With Eugenics, you run the risk of losing that.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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21 Mar 2012, 10:06 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Eugenics is the usage of scientific sounding excuses to commit murder or to otherwise reduce populations that are arbitrarily deemed "undesirable" and as such the whole notion is itself utterly undesirable.


Eugenics is applied biology. It is selective breeding to get a better product. Humans have been doing Eugenics with plants and animals for thousands of years. Virtually every food product we have in modern nations is the result of selective breeding and hybridization. If we can breed a better steer or a better dog, why not a better human?

ruveyn


A human being isn't a dog or a steer. We're something different. You yourself had said we're sentient beings; that alone gives even the most flawed of us rights. And while I know you don't believe in it, there is the notion of the soul - that immortal part of us that separates us from all other creatures. And where would eugenics end? How long would it take for someone to say that autistic individuals should be left out of the breeding pool? And no, I don't buy the notion that someone would say, "While I'll be - people with Asperger's are superior, let's put them to work!". We'd be just as in much danger as people with Down's Syndrome.
And beside, the most wonderful thing about human beings is, while we're all profoundly f**** up, we're also amazingly incredible. With Eugenics, you run the risk of losing that.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


What makes you think selective breeding is abuse of rights? It is simply matching men and women intelligently so their offsprings are brighter and better. Are you uncomfortable with the notion that person A may be better or smart or more beautiful than person B?

ruveynb



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21 Mar 2012, 10:19 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Eugenics is the usage of scientific sounding excuses to commit murder or to otherwise reduce populations that are arbitrarily deemed "undesirable" and as such the whole notion is itself utterly undesirable.


Eugenics is applied biology. It is selective breeding to get a better product. Humans have been doing Eugenics with plants and animals for thousands of years. Virtually every food product we have in modern nations is the result of selective breeding and hybridization. If we can breed a better steer or a better dog, why not a better human?

ruveyn


A human being isn't a dog or a steer. We're something different. You yourself had said we're sentient beings; that alone gives even the most flawed of us rights. And while I know you don't believe in it, there is the notion of the soul - that immortal part of us that separates us from all other creatures. And where would eugenics end? How long would it take for someone to say that autistic individuals should be left out of the breeding pool? And no, I don't buy the notion that someone would say, "While I'll be - people with Asperger's are superior, let's put them to work!". We'd be just as in much danger as people with Down's Syndrome.
And beside, the most wonderful thing about human beings is, while we're all profoundly f**** up, we're also amazingly incredible. With Eugenics, you run the risk of losing that.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


What makes you think selective breeding is abuse of rights? It is simply matching men and women intelligently so their offsprings are brighter and better. Are you uncomfortable with the notion that person A may be better or smart or more beautiful than person B?

ruveynb


No, I'm not uncomfortable with that - as long as it's done by people mating with whom they prefer to. Some people are just going to be smarter or better looking than others. My problem with it is when someone in the name of some pseudo-scientific BS figures they can decide which people are desirable to survive, and which ones should be bred out.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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21 Mar 2012, 10:32 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

No, I'm not uncomfortable with that - as long as it's done by people mating with whom they prefer to. Some people are just going to be smarter or better looking than others. My problem with it is when someone in the name of some pseudo-scientific BS figures they can decide which people are desirable to survive, and which ones should be bred out.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Short of bloody murder how can anyone be "bred out"? We are not talking about sterilization or murder, we are talking about smarter mating.

ruveyn



Kraichgauer
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21 Mar 2012, 11:21 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

No, I'm not uncomfortable with that - as long as it's done by people mating with whom they prefer to. Some people are just going to be smarter or better looking than others. My problem with it is when someone in the name of some pseudo-scientific BS figures they can decide which people are desirable to survive, and which ones should be bred out.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Short of bloody murder how can anyone be "bred out"? We are not talking about sterilization or murder, we are talking about smarter mating.

ruveyn


That's still breeding out "undesirables," isn't it? I say, let people marry and copulate with whoever they wish. It's worked for us for the last hundred thousand years - or however long modern humans have been walking the earth.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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21 Mar 2012, 11:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

My apologies to puddingmouse, then. 8)

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Anyone born of humans is a human.


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Kraichgauer
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21 Mar 2012, 11:47 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

My apologies to puddingmouse, then. 8)

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Anyone born of humans is a human.


Amen.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



blauSamstag
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21 Mar 2012, 11:59 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Eugenics is the usage of scientific sounding excuses to commit murder or to otherwise reduce populations that are arbitrarily deemed "undesirable" and as such the whole notion is itself utterly undesirable.


Eugenics is applied biology. It is selective breeding to get a better product. Humans have been doing Eugenics with plants and animals for thousands of years. Virtually every food product we have in modern nations is the result of selective breeding and hybridization. If we can breed a better steer or a better dog, why not a better human?

ruveyn



I agree with you, and i have an answer for you.

We shouldn't do it with humans because it raises too many moral and ethical questions that we are incompetent to answer.

Not that that stops us. Every parent tries to practice selective breeding with their own children by attempting to influence their mating choices. In some countries they do this directly with arranged marriage.

It's inefficient and there is a preponderance of incompetent practitioners but humans engage in eugenics all around the world.

We're just unwilling, for obvious reasons, to attempt it on the sort of scale applied by, say, goldfish breeders. The number of tiny mutant lives that get ended in back yard ponds by dull men in england would astonish you. All for a few fishes with particular good looks.



ruveyn
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22 Mar 2012, 2:27 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

My apologies to puddingmouse, then. 8)

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Anyone born of humans is a human.


Amen.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


You have overlooked the possibility of mutation. How did the human species arise from previously existing hominid and primate species. Genetic variation with some mutations. At some point in the past a non-human primate mating pair produced a human not of the same species as its parents.

You are confusing biology and morality. Biology is logos. It is a science. Morality is doxa. It is mere judgement and opinion. There are NO moral facts, only moral judgements.

ruveyn



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22 Mar 2012, 2:29 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

That's still breeding out "undesirables," isn't it? I say, let people marry and copulate with whoever they wish. It's worked for us for the last hundred thousand years - or however long modern humans have been walking the earth.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


What is wrong with people choosing their mates intelligently? No one is being "bred out" A better kind of human is being "bred in".

ruveyn



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22 Mar 2012, 2:45 am

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

That's still breeding out "undesirables," isn't it? I say, let people marry and copulate with whoever they wish. It's worked for us for the last hundred thousand years - or however long modern humans have been walking the earth.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


What is wrong with people choosing their mates intelligently? No one is being "bred out" A better kind of human is being "bred in".

ruveyn


What's wrong with choosing your mate for love? If my wife hadn't, I'd probably still be single.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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22 Mar 2012, 3:22 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

That's still breeding out "undesirables," isn't it? I say, let people marry and copulate with whoever they wish. It's worked for us for the last hundred thousand years - or however long modern humans have been walking the earth.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


What is wrong with people choosing their mates intelligently? No one is being "bred out" A better kind of human is being "bred in".

ruveyn


What's wrong with choosing your mate for love? If my wife hadn't, I'd probably still be single.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


There is nothing wrong with that. But if one has the goal of producing a superior human specimen one must have the genetic attributes and seek a mate with superior genetic attributes.

What is wrong with aiming for the best?

And why does love have to be blind?

ruveyn



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22 Mar 2012, 6:20 am

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:

That's still breeding out "undesirables," isn't it? I say, let people marry and copulate with whoever they wish. It's worked for us for the last hundred thousand years - or however long modern humans have been walking the earth.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


What is wrong with people choosing their mates intelligently? No one is being "bred out" A better kind of human is being "bred in".

ruveyn


What's wrong with choosing your mate for love? If my wife hadn't, I'd probably still be single.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


There is nothing wrong with that. But if one has the goal of producing a superior human specimen one must have the genetic attributes and seek a mate with superior genetic attributes.

What is wrong with aiming for the best?

And why does love have to be blind?

ruveyn


Well, if my wife was aiming for the best at the time, I wouldn't have been in the running. So I'm all for blind love.
Incidentally, it was racists and Antisemites like Charles Limberg in this country, and Heinrich Himmler in Germany who argued that thought should be given to selecting a mate in order to produce superior offspring. In fact, Himmler was confident that Germany could breed a race of 100% blond, blue eyed Aryans by the year 1980. Didn't quite work out that way.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer