I have converted to atheism

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this also portrays quite a good deal of the issue,

not to diminish the excellent post by NarcissusSavage

This has got to be one of the most epic memes I've encountered.

That's just your reason for being an atheist. There's no weak or strong. Every atheist has their reason for their beliefs, just like people that believe in God have their own reasons for believing.

I think I understand what you're trying to get at with the verdicts, but I don't think it's a good analogy to belief/disbelief. Courts conduct their cases on hard evidence. Hard evidence isn't required to reach a belief, which is the case for atheism and theism.

In a court case and the jury is skeptical enough to grant a "not guilty" charge, that just means that they don't feel like they can charge the defendant with a crime according to how the court system should be ran. Their skepticism in the evidence to convict the defendant means they are unsure enough to not reach a guilty verdict. And that's a good rule to go by, as far as the court system goes. You don't want people simply being convicted because everyone has a slight inclination that the defendant is guilty.

Regardless, each individual person can still hold their individual belief in the case, no matter how ambiguous it might seem.

There's nothing remotely ambiguous about flat-out NOT BELIEVING in either god's existence or non-existence.

It's not an issue of "confidence", "ambiguity", or being "unsure".

It's simply skepticism of both propositions.

I agree with NSavage- you seem to be making proclamations about what everyone else believes
based on your own inability to have a LACK OF belief about something.

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 03 Apr 2012, 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

"I don't believe in God and that is my non-position"

I refuse to believe that is true. Call me crazy.

If your mom was marooned on some primitive island far from human contact and she died while you were still an infant, and you were accepted by and raised by wolves, I could see how that is true, but you wouldn't be the one saying it about yourself.



If I told you about a notion, then you could potential be the same before I told you about the notion. That's just not true. You could also say that everything could potentially not effect you one way or the other. This is not true. It would be like you have a shield around yourself that shields you from reality. Of course this isn't true either. And if someone believed in that, well, that's magically thinking.



You have a belief, but you're right, you probably don't know, but you still have a belief. You're not as neutral as you think. It's there, even in a relatively undeveloped form. You don't have a shield that deflects notions, like you were never exposed to them.



I don't want to do that. I can grasp what you're saying, but I don't think it's reality. You aren't equipped with psychic shields that reflect notions and concepts for you to not consider.

People believe in God or they don't, and there is a multitude of reasons why they hold their position. It's not really black and white at all.

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. My initial question was to get someone to elucidate me on how some atheists can claim that they have no belief regarding the existence of God. And just as I suspected, the question couldn't be satisfied, so now I'm going to say why it is an absurd thing to think.



Maybe they aren't lying, they could be misguided, they might not have considered what they are saying enough...or maybe they actually do think they are equipped with psychic shields that nullify the force exerted on people through notions.



Sure it's possible, but the possibility greatly decreases as you grow up.



People can think of just about anything. I did have a thread about that. But just because you can think of it doesn't necessarily means it's possible.

I'm not claiming to be any kind of authority. I'm just exposing an idea I feel is absurd, and I've said a lot about the absurdity of it, without much as far as substance to say I'm not right, so I take it I must be on to something.



I urge you to consider what I'm saying a little bit more.



I don't belief that a true non-position is obtainable. Telling you a notion is the same as not telling you a notion.

I really don't think so.



3) I do not believe there is a god

That doesn't presume that you also don't believe that God doesn't exist.

2=3



The question is more of a metaphysical question. If you don't answer it in that way, then you didn't really even answer it.

Nope. 3 INCLUDES 2. 2 does NOT include 3. And that is the distinction you have trouble making.



Snapcap, what forms the basis of your continued claim that
everyone has a positive belief about every idea they're presented with?

I always imagined you to be the spiritual type artrat.

All snapcap is saying is that everything is a belief. Your nonbelief is your belief. Discussion over

Right and
not playing the violin is a talent
bald is a hair color
off is a TV channel

Actually, those are things can be validated. They aren't beliefs, although there is nothing to stop someone from believing it. Not my fault if you get picked on for them.

but saying that is as meaningless and inane as saying we are all human,

he may be correct but as a point or an argument it is literally nothing, at all.

so sure that may be his position but if so why spend time discussing it, i dont think it is, he claimed multiple times that he doesnt believe there exists weak atheism,.

you should read her above post instead of replying to the one using metaphor.

He's making declarations about what others can and cannot believe,
despite several people, representative of millions more,
who are flatly telling him YES, I have skepticism where you proclaim I cannot be skeptical.


I, myself, find it impossible to empathize with people who have non-deductive thought processes-
whether I agree with the conclusions or not, I can communicate about ideas with them because we have the same processing framework.
Any other frameworks, and I'm utterly lost and discussion is next to impossible because we're speaking different languages.

Does that mean I baldly assert that everyone MUST think the way I do, even if they won't admit it, that they're just "unconfident" about thinking that way, or their feelings are "ambiguous"?
No. That's stupid. They think differently than I do, and to attempt to objectively define their reality by my subjective one is lulzy.

Last edited by ValentineWiggin on 03 Apr 2012, 11:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

On paper, that may be true, but not in people's heads. It's a junk notion.

It's true in my head.

What say you to that?

Interesting statement

You believe that I'm telling people what they can and cannot believe. I'm going to presume that it's safe to say that you believe in your belief that you have a non-position.

Well, I'm not sure if that is what an atheist is. Seem kind of contradicting.

"He is making statements that tell people that they can't believe that they have no belief."

Interesting.

Last edited by snapcap on 03 Apr 2012, 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.