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enrico_dandolo
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03 Apr 2012, 1:33 pm

Gravechylde wrote:
Agnostic, I don't know if there is/isn't a god, or if the big bang is true or if the multiverse is true, but I'm perfectly content with not knowing for sure.

Being agnostic is not just "I don't know", it is saying it is impossible to know. (Btw, I am agnostic.)



Rocky
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03 Apr 2012, 1:52 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
Gravechylde wrote:
Agnostic, I don't know if there is/isn't a god, or if the big bang is true or if the multiverse is true, but I'm perfectly content with not knowing for sure.

Being agnostic is not just "I don't know", it is saying it is impossible to know. (Btw, I am agnostic.)


Are you an agnostic atheist or an agnostic theist? You have stated what can be known (as you see it) but some agnostics believe in a god using faith, while admitting that absolute knowledge about their god is impossible.



laylasmith
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03 Apr 2012, 2:44 pm

abacacus wrote:

Why don't we take a small look see in to how different the genders positions are in life:

Womens testimony in court counts for half of a mans testimony (Sura 2:282).

If a woman does not do exactly as a man says, she should be beaten (Sura 4:34)

Women are discouraged to decline sex (Sura 2:223)

Women get a half share of any inheritance (Sura 4:11)

Equality in religion is meaningless. Equality in life is what you will actually experience. In Islam, you are property.


1.I am not really sure the why on the first one because it doesn't really matter to me much but i'm sure i can find it if you really want me too.
2. The first time i read the surah i was very unhappy until it was explained to me. Now before a man can hit a women in any way he most follow the other couple of steps, and then he can only hit her if it will save the marriage, if not he is not permitted to hit her. Plus muslim have to follow what the prophet did too and he says that you can't hurt a women when you hit her you can't leave a mark on her. So like hitting he with a small piece of cloth, only if it will save the marriage. And i have heard it is only talking about very sever cases when that is followed. (i don't know the hadiths exactly but i have read them)
So he has to be kind to his wife even if she is being bad to him.
3. Ok your right about the sex thing but you have to remember she choose her husband, she loves him, and he can't force her at all. Now if it would be bad for her or whatever she doesn't have to at all. And a good husband would not ask his wife that if he knows she doesn't actually want to. And i have read that a husband has to sleep with his wife too, because that is one of the duties of a husband, i believe.
4.Women get less inadvertence because they don't have to support their families and men have too. All of a mans money goes to his family and his wife. A women doesn't have to give any of her money to her family unless she wants too. So the inadvertence is less for her because she doesn't have to support her family.
5. They are not the same but the compliment each other.

Now i am still learning but this is how it was explained to me and maybe they told me in a better way i don't know.



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03 Apr 2012, 2:46 pm

I don't have one.


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laylasmith
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03 Apr 2012, 2:50 pm

TallyMan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
laylasmith wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Funny it's only women who have to mummify themselves to be modest.


But its not only women, men have a dress code too. Of course it is different than a womens but that is because men and women are different physically.

Men cover from there knees to there belly button.

Maybe it doesn't seem fair but women are treated as something very very very beautiful, more important and more beautiful than men. With out women, we wouldn't have life.

And it gives a women freedom from being judged by her looks, instead of her brains.

Plus she can dress in any color or style she wants, its not like she doesn't get to choose what she wears. And she doesn't have to cover in her home.


:lmao:


Oh the sheer hedonism of it! :lol: I wonder if she gets to eat or breathe or do any of the other things that most of us take for granted?

Are you kidding me? In my opinion a muslim women is just as free as an non-muslim women but she cares more about her body, and her mind than a non-muslim.



laylasmith
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03 Apr 2012, 2:55 pm

TallyMan wrote:
laylasmith wrote:
Rocky wrote:

Science does not answer every question. But it continues to work on the unknown questions. I like the fact that the current body of knowledge is subject to change if new evidence is found. Religions tend to start with a set of beliefs and do everything possible to justify those beliefs in the face of new evidence.


But i don't believe that religion and science should be apart. God gave us science in my opinion so they go together. And in Islam there is nothing saying that we can not accept science, because all of the mysteries of our world were created by God.


It is interesting that undergraduate Muslim biology students exclude themselves from science classes, such as evolution, where your religious beliefs are found to be in direct contradiction with the facts.

That would be there choice and it makes me sad.
This is what a muslim friend of mine said :
The Quran states that "Allah created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days" (7:54).
The verses that mention "six days" use the Arabic word "youm" (day). This word appears several other times in the Quran, each denoting a different measurement of time. In one case, the measure of a day is equated with 50,000 years (70:4), whereas another verse states that "a day in the sight of your Lord is like 1,000 years of your reckoning" (22:47). The word "youm" is thus understood, within the Qur'an, to be a long period of time -- an era or eon. Therefore, Muslims interpret the description of a "six day" creation as six distinct periods or eons. The length of these periods is not precisely defined, nor are the specific developments that took place during each period.

There is nothing in Islam that says evolution couldn't have happened. It is very possible and in the past muslims were great scientists, or that is what i have heard.
If they choose to view Islam as something outside of science that is their own opinion. In my opinion God created EArth and he created Science.



laylasmith
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03 Apr 2012, 2:58 pm

abacacus wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Science says that men and women are equal. Islam says they are not.

All religions say women and men are different, because they were created at a time when the difference between both sexes was economically useful (unlike now).

The last time I read the Ancient Testament, "equal rights" was not a very important theme.


True. Most older religions make a point of explaining that women are mens property however... which is hardly something that can be explained as "economically useful".


Muslim men might treat women like that but that is not what Islam teaches. Women can't be bought or sold, or inherited, they can't be forced into anything. Now if muslim men are doing that then they will get what they deserve when they meet God.



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03 Apr 2012, 3:14 pm

laylasmith wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
laylasmith wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Funny it's only women who have to mummify themselves to be modest.


But its not only women, men have a dress code too. Of course it is different than a womens but that is because men and women are different physically.

Men cover from there knees to there belly button.

Maybe it doesn't seem fair but women are treated as something very very very beautiful, more important and more beautiful than men. With out women, we wouldn't have life.

And it gives a women freedom from being judged by her looks, instead of her brains.

Plus she can dress in any color or style she wants, its not like she doesn't get to choose what she wears. And she doesn't have to cover in her home.


:lmao:


Oh the sheer hedonism of it! :lol: I wonder if she gets to eat or breathe or do any of the other things that most of us take for granted?

Are you kidding me? In my opinion a muslim women is just as free as an non-muslim women but she cares more about her body, and her mind than a non-muslim.


My reply was sarcastic. You expressed the fact that you can wear any colour you like and what to wear at home as though it was some big privilege permitted by your religion rather than something that everyone takes for granted.

Regarding Muslims caring more for their minds, I see no evidence of that, if anything rather the contrary as Muslims are forbidden to educate themselves about many things e.g. evolution. If any facts or truths disagree with your holy book you are forbidden to learn about them. In Afghanistan women are no longer allowed to be educated. Existing women teachers in that country are being forced to quit their jobs or face being killed. Women aren't allowed to have minds, it is your role to cook, clean, bear children and look after your man. Women aren't even allowed to learn to drive in some Muslim countries. Talk to a man alone and you face being whipped. Why do you need a mind anyway because everything you need to know is in the Koran anyway. :wink:

Sorry if this sounds rather caustic; it isn't personal, I simply find your religion to be full of hypocrisy and horrors, something from the dark ages that continues to cause a lot of strife, oppression and pain to many people around the world.


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laylasmith
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03 Apr 2012, 3:33 pm

TallyMan wrote:
laylasmith wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
laylasmith wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Funny it's only women who have to mummify themselves to be modest.


But its not only women, men have a dress code too. Of course it is different than a womens but that is because men and women are different physically.

Men cover from there knees to there belly button.

Maybe it doesn't seem fair but women are treated as something very very very beautiful, more important and more beautiful than men. With out women, we wouldn't have life.

And it gives a women freedom from being judged by her looks, instead of her brains.

Plus she can dress in any color or style she wants, its not like she doesn't get to choose what she wears. And she doesn't have to cover in her home.


:lmao:


Oh the sheer hedonism of it! :lol: I wonder if she gets to eat or breathe or do any of the other things that most of us take for granted?

Are you kidding me? In my opinion a muslim women is just as free as an non-muslim women but she cares more about her body, and her mind than a non-muslim.


My reply was sarcastic. You expressed the fact that you can wear any colour you like and what to wear at home as though it was some big privilege permitted by your religion rather than something that everyone takes for granted.

Regarding Muslims caring more for their minds, I see no evidence of that, if anything rather the contrary as Muslims are forbidden to educate themselves about many things e.g. evolution. If any facts or truths disagree with your holy book you are forbidden to learn about them. In Afghanistan women are no longer allowed to be educated. Existing women teachers in that country are being forced to quit their jobs or face being killed. Women aren't allowed to have minds, it is your role to cook, clean, bear children and look after your man. Women aren't even allowed to learn to drive in some Muslim countries. Talk to a man alone and you face being whipped. Why do you need a mind anyway because everything you need to know is in the Koran anyway. :wink:

Sorry if this sounds rather caustic; it isn't personal, I simply find your religion to be full of hypocrisy and horrors, something from the dark ages that continues to cause a lot of strife, oppression and pain to many people around the world.


Well i didn't mean it like that.

It says right in the quran that you should questions what is given you. I know, i have questioned everything that i was given. Every bit of information.
And if a country stops its people that is one thing. It doesn't mean its Islam at all.

People do bad things, it doesn't matter if the religion or whatever is perfect they still twist it and make it bad. That can't be helped.
And in Islam women have as much as a right to go out and work as a man does. And i see the perfect muslim marriage when i look at my pagan dad and stepmom. It doesn't have to be something that is bad.
so those people are just crazy and everything they do that is wrong they will be judged for. Those people take a little bit of the quran stretch it far and then add whatever they want into it. Thats very wrong.

And not everything we need to know is in the quran. In the quran it tells us to do as the prophet did too.

And yeah some people are bad and maybe a lot of muslim are bad but i will practice the way i beleive Islam is meant to be and it doesn't have any of those things.



LiendaBalla
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03 Apr 2012, 3:46 pm

I no longer have one.



laylasmith
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03 Apr 2012, 3:55 pm

LiendaBalla wrote:
I no longer have one.

Why? If you don't mind me asking?



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03 Apr 2012, 4:01 pm

laylasmith wrote:

1.I am not really sure the why on the first one because it doesn't really matter to me much but i'm sure i can find it if you really want me too.
2. The first time i read the surah i was very unhappy until it was explained to me. Now before a man can hit a women in any way he most follow the other couple of steps, and then he can only hit her if it will save the marriage, if not he is not permitted to hit her. Plus muslim have to follow what the prophet did too and he says that you can't hurt a women when you hit her you can't leave a mark on her. So like hitting he with a small piece of cloth, only if it will save the marriage. And i have heard it is only talking about very sever cases when that is followed. (i don't know the hadiths exactly but i have read them)
So he has to be kind to his wife even if she is being bad to him.
3. Ok your right about the sex thing but you have to remember she choose her husband, she loves him, and he can't force her at all. Now if it would be bad for her or whatever she doesn't have to at all. And a good husband would not ask his wife that if he knows she doesn't actually want to. And i have read that a husband has to sleep with his wife too, because that is one of the duties of a husband, i believe.
4.Women get less inadvertence because they don't have to support their families and men have too. All of a mans money goes to his family and his wife. A women doesn't have to give any of her money to her family unless she wants too. So the inadvertence is less for her because she doesn't have to support her family.
5. They are not the same but the compliment each other.

Now i am still learning but this is how it was explained to me and maybe they told me in a better way i don't know.


1.Womens testimony counts less in court because in Islam women are considered to be forgetful fools, and therefore they must have another female witness to remind her of what she forgets.

2. Oh, so a man can hit a woman whenever he feels like it will help save the marriage? Yeah, it's perfectly okay to beat a woman in to submission if she wants to leave... Oh, and the prophet didn't hit his wife with a small piece of cloth, he punched her in the chest. Learn your religion.

3.She chose her husband? No she didn't! Marriages in Islam always were (and still are in most places) arranged, you have no say in who you marry and when. Your father decides.

4.Inadvertence is not inheritance. Inadvertence is a mistake, inheritance is money/property/what have you given after a family member passes away. Now, let me get this straight, you think it's perfectly fine that the woman gets less because of outdated social norms?

5. No, they don't. Equality in religion is a nice idea that means exactly nothing in the real world.


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laylasmith
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03 Apr 2012, 4:08 pm

abacacus wrote:

1.Womens testimony counts less in court because in Islam women are considered to be forgetful fools, and therefore they must have another female witness to remind her of what she forgets.

2. Oh, so a man can hit a woman whenever he feels like it will help save the marriage? Yeah, it's perfectly okay to beat a woman in to submission if she wants to leave... Oh, and the prophet didn't hit his wife with a small piece of cloth, he punched her in the chest. Learn your religion.

3.She chose her husband? No she didn't! Marriages in Islam always were (and still are in most places) arranged, you have no say in who you marry and when. Your father decides.

4.Inadvertence is not inheritance. Inadvertence is a mistake, inheritance is money/property/what have you given after a family member passes away. Now, let me get this straight, you think it's perfectly fine that the woman gets less because of outdated social norms?

5. No, they don't. Equality in religion is a nice idea that means exactly nothing in the real world.

!. i don't really mind, i am pretty forgetful and if i had to testify i would love to have someone else there.
2. I didn't say whenever. And i have never read that but he is human if he did something wrong, its possible. And if it is bad she can get a divorce and he will be punished by God because men are meant to be good to their wife.
3. Arranged is different from forced. She does get to decided if she wants to marry him or not, and they can't force her.
4. Yeah i do because she doesn't have to support her family like a man does. It doesn't make sense to give them the same if one has more to pay, and is obligated to pay by his religion.



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03 Apr 2012, 5:00 pm

1. Wonderful, you're already accepting being second class. The Muslims must love you.

2. You said he could hit her if he thinks it will save the marriage. That is very open, and any man that will beat his wife will take any reason he can to do so. What this is, is permission for a man to beat his wife when she disobeys him.

3. You are so naive... the girl has no say in an arranged marriage. None. Her father decides who she will marry and if she doesn't like it she has to deal with it.

4. That was once true. It isn't any more. As I said, it is an outdated social norm, it has no application in todays society whether your religion says it does or not.


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03 Apr 2012, 5:36 pm

abacacus wrote:

1.Womens' testimony counts less in court because in Islam women are considered to be forgetful fools,...


Apparently none of these men have ever had a mother.



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03 Apr 2012, 6:03 pm

I am a christian but I am very secualr about my faith it is a personal part of my life also I get along better with atheists at times because though they do not believe they often have good morals also you don't need to be religious to believe in God I have nor have I ever been an anti-atheist I see nothing wrong with not believeing so yeah im very secualuar about my faith and I don't let my faith get in the way of my political views I am a strong independent who is liberal on social issues and the law but some what but very little conservative on spending and the military.