Calling all marxists

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Sweetleaf
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26 Apr 2012, 5:25 pm

TM wrote:

Communism cannot exist as a functional system because the ideology that it is based on is broken. However, the ideology failing to work has cost millions of people their lives. Because Marx explicitly states that a party rule has to be instituted in a transitional period, it lead to Stalin taking power, murdering millions, the Khmer Rogue murdering a whole heap of people, and that's leaving out things like famines. Famines that stemmed from the innate flaws of the system for resource management, which was also responsible for excessively inefficient central planning for production of goods.

Then there is the question nobody ever really asks in a debate about communism, how come 90% of the time when someone tried to do it on a state level it ended with the same result?

Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing and expecting different results. Communism lead to authoritarian anti-human rights dictatorships in the Soviet Union, in North Korea, in Cambodia, and quite a few others. With this many attempts, shouldn't it have at least "sorta-worked" somewhere?

Should I point out all the bad in the world capitalism has contributed, and that is a system that can be set up.....though I would still argue I think a communist system is possible, but maybe unlikey especially with the common mindset people have. Also systems more simular to ours have collapsed in the past as well. Also there is something called corruption that can lead to problems with any system. Communism did not lead to those things.......since it still has not existed.

By nature a communist system cannot have a dictator, classless society would make that impossible.....so I don't count dictatorships as communist states as they don't fit the definition.

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AstroGeek
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26 Apr 2012, 11:52 pm

Um, the title of this thread was inviting Marxists and other lefties to the discussion. Why exactly are ruveyn and TM taking part? They seem to have thrown off the whole point, which I interpreted to be a philosophical debate among socialists rather than a debate over whether socialism is a good or bad ideology.

Kjas
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27 Apr 2012, 12:14 am

Declension wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Even in the Scandinavian Countries with the mixed economies it is the market portion of the economy that keeps their pot boiling.

Agreed. I think that the idea of markets is one of those "obviously correct" ideas, like the idea of democracy.

Interestingly, I sometimes feel that lefties are the true defenders of markets. It is lefties who want to "artificially" prevent cartels and monopolies from dominating potential competitors. Cartels and monopolies do not produce a vibrant economy.

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Declension
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27 Apr 2012, 12:38 am

AstroGeek wrote:

Eh. Maybe I'm just rude, but I'm pretty sure I would gatecrash the hell out a thread called "Calling All Libertarians".

Rainy
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27 Apr 2012, 3:31 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

That is a very inaccurate claim to make. If we had a competent system that did not simply serve to cater to the well off and corporate interests while screwing everyone else over via crap wages, and outsourcing for instance those jobs would be paid better.....it has nothing to do with it not being difficult work which I still don't see how one can say physical labor is not hard work.

Because almost anyone can do physical labor. Not everyone can do surgery.

Quote:

Hint: If you have a economic system that only works if people act in the way you need them to, and then admit that people in reality don't act this way, then it's not a working economic system.

Systems like this tend to only work in close-knit communities. For example, the Native American tribes.

Sweetleaf
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27 Apr 2012, 3:42 am

Rainy wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Because almost anyone can do physical labor. Not everyone can do surgery.

That does not mean it's easy work deserving of crap wages...also most people cannot perform surgery because they haven't gone to school for it and thus have not learned how but I doubt most people would be completely incapable if taught. But whatever point is physical labor is not 'easy' it strains the body for one, and depending on the nature of work there can be more complex tasks that not just anyone can do.

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Yeah I know, that is why I said its only existed in smaller groups in one of my last posts....but thing is this system isn't working either.

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Rainy
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27 Apr 2012, 4:09 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

That does not mean it's easy work deserving of crap wages...also most people cannot perform surgery because they haven't gone to school for it and thus have not learned how but I doubt most people would be completely incapable if taught. But whatever point is physical labor is not 'easy' it strains the body for one, and depending on the nature of work there can be more complex tasks that not just anyone can do.

You say "if taught surgery" like it's easy to learn.

I'm not sure what physical labor you're talking about, but if it's complicated enough that most people can't do it, then it probably gets higher wages. And if it is something that anyone can do, then the skills required for the job are not rare or valuable, hence they get paid less.

Quote:

Yeah I know, that is why I said its only existed in smaller groups in one of my last posts....but thing is this system isn't working either.

Perhaps, but paying people low wages for something anyone else could do isn't one of the reasons.

GoonSquad
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27 Apr 2012, 6:30 am

Rainy wrote:

Perhaps, but paying people low wages for something anyone else could do isn't one of the reasons.

Tell that to Henry Ford. Capitalists have not always been bottom feeding, greedy, short sighted scumbags.

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Sweetleaf
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27 Apr 2012, 6:56 am

Rainy wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

You say "if taught surgery" like it's easy to learn.

No I did not say it like that at all, I said most people haven't gone to school at it, but I think anyone of average or higher intelligence could potentially learn to do brain surgery...not that it would be easy though.

I'm not sure what physical labor you're talking about, but if it's complicated enough that most people can't do it, then it probably gets higher wages. And if it is something that anyone can do, then the skills required for the job are not rare or valuable, hence they get paid less.

Likewise with the brain surgery, what I refer to are things that can be taught...also aside from the complexity of some tasks, what about the toll this sort of work will take on the body? while brain surgery may be more complex than a lot of physical labor, its probably not as physically exhausting.

Quote:

Yeah I know, that is why I said its only existed in smaller groups in one of my last posts....but thing is this system isn't working either.

Perhaps, but paying people low wages for something anyone else could do isn't one of the reasons.

So you don't think lack of decent wages is a problem? Also since when should people not be paid decent wages simply because anyone could learn to do that sort of work.....it still takes effort, and it takes time to perfect things and actually do a good job. But yeah maybe the utter disrespect towards labor jobs is part of the issue.

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Last edited by Sweetleaf on 27 Apr 2012, 7:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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27 Apr 2012, 6:57 am

GoonSquad wrote:

Rainy wrote:

Perhaps, but paying people low wages for something anyone else could do isn't one of the reasons.

Tell that to Henry Ford. Capitalists have not always been bottom feeding, greedy, short sighted scumbags.

Actually I think those are the traits capitalism was built on.

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Rainy
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27 Apr 2012, 7:41 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

Most people make enough to live on physical labor jobs. Those who don't are supposed to receive government aid.

If you mean "decent wages" as in "A little less than white collar workers", then no, your physical labor probably isn't worth that much, although that also depends on what kind of physical labor you're talking about.

Oh, and increasing wages for jobs like these would increase unemployment.

GoonSquad
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27 Apr 2012, 7:47 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

Rainy wrote:

Perhaps, but paying people low wages for something anyone else could do isn't one of the reasons.

Tell that to Henry Ford. Capitalists have not always been bottom feeding, greedy, short sighted scumbags.

Actually I think those are the traits capitalism was built on.

Ford created the American mass market by DOUBLING the wages of his workers. He more than paid for it with smart, efficient manufacturing processes and a GREATLY expanded market. Ford thought that everyone who built a Ford should be able to buy a Ford.

In the last 30 years the efficiency of American workers has gone through the roof, but wages have stagnated and jobs have been lost. At the same time, wages of top executives have gone from 40Xworker's wages to 200Xworker's wages. These days capitalists are all about destroying markets, not creating them.

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GoonSquad
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27 Apr 2012, 7:49 am

Rainy wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

You need to study some history.

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Sweetleaf
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27 Apr 2012, 8:15 am

Rainy wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Most people make enough to live on physical labor jobs. Those who don't are supposed to receive government aid.

Yeah and many of them don't receive this aid, and are hardly making enough to get by....and some even have families to feed.

If you mean "decent wages" as in "A little less than white collar workers", then no, your physical labor probably isn't worth that much, although that also depends on what kind of physical labor you're talking about.

Oh, and increasing wages for jobs like these would increase unemployment.

And no I mean decent wages.....as in one has enough to provide for them self(and their family if they have a family) and I wonder how worthless people would find these jobs if everyone who did them just quit. No one to build houses, structures or buildings, no one to paint them, no one to clean, no one to stock shelves I could go on and on......but yeah I guess any work involving labor just isn't worth anything :roll:

Also as I mentioned before physical labor can take quite a toll on the body, the pay should reflect that....but no I guess it is easier to hire illegal immigrants who will work for less then actually provide living wages.

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ruveyn
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27 Apr 2012, 8:18 am

Sweetleaf wrote:

GoonSquad wrote:

Rainy wrote:

Perhaps, but paying people low wages for something anyone else could do isn't one of the reasons.

Tell that to Henry Ford. Capitalists have not always been bottom feeding, greedy, short sighted scumbags.

Actually I think those are the traits capitalism was built on.

Capitalism is "built on" property and profitable activities. One makes profits by producing goods and services that other people want and are willing to pay for.

That is why capitalism is the process that ended feudalism and slavery and introduced industry. Slaves were replaced by machines. Even Marx saw capitalism as a progressive and necessary part of fully developing human potential.

ruveyn

Mummy_of_Peanut
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27 Apr 2012, 8:20 am

I think there's a common misconception that if you work in an office, wear a suit, etc, you must earn more than a blue collar worker. I imagine most of the really high earners use their brains more than their brawn and they are more likely to be white collar folk. However, the average office worker does not earn more than a bricklayer, joiner or factory employee. Some do of course, and the top executive salaries probably take the average wage for a white collar worker up (skewing the figures). I've had discussions with manual workers in the past, who just assumed my husband and I earned more (especially as we've both been to uni), but when actual salaries were mentioned, they had assumed wrongly. Even as a woman in the 60s, my mum earned double what my dad did. She's the blue collar and he's the white collar.

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