Understanding Feminism (Women: Your opinions)

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Vigilans
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19 Jul 2012, 1:00 pm

autismthinker21 wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Viligain sounds like some kind of athletic protein shake. I will have to add that to my list of common misspellings of my username :P


I was trying to say Vigilans. just didn't spell it right. jeez what's your problem? it sounds like your making fun of my spellings for things. not everyone is perfect. and i was flipping through tabs. what kind of name is Vigilans anyway? did you get that from a poster?


Hey, relax amigo! :) I was not trying to offend or one-up you. I don't think there is anything wrong with being amused by misspellings of a username, especially since they are so frequent for mine. I was not suggesting you are not good at spelling or anything like that. By the way, Vigilans is a Latin word.


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edgewaters
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19 Jul 2012, 1:20 pm

meems wrote:
I don't mean to sound like think I am entitled to speak for other women and I don't want other women to take it upon themselves to speak for me.

I'm not offended when a man holds the door for me, I'm grateful, it's a very polite thing to do for anyone. But where I live, men will not stand for it if I try to hold the door for them, they will refuse to go through the door and some get pretty hostile, as if I have challenged their masculinity or something. THAT is really insulting. I know not all men do that and my experience is limited to Texas.

It's the idea that men and women have set identities in society that bothers me.


Interesting. I hold the door for anyone following behind. Just seems rude to let it shut in their face. Most other people where I live do exactly the same thing. General rule seems to be to hold the door if the person is a certain distance behind, some people have a longer or shorter distance than others but most people do this.

Speaking here of self-closing doors, the type that are used for businesses and other public areas. It would seem rather odd to hold a door that can stay open all by itself.



hanyo
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19 Jul 2012, 1:31 pm

edgewaters wrote:
Interesting. I hold the door for anyone following behind. Just seems rude to let it shut in their face. Most other people where I live do exactly the same thing. General rule seems to be to hold the door if the person is a certain distance behind, some people have a longer or shorter distance than others but most people do this.


That is what people do where I live too.



mds_02
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19 Jul 2012, 1:59 pm

LKL wrote:
Sort of like how women receive mixed messages about the virgin/whore dichotomy? If we have sex, we're sluts. If we don't, we're frigid..


Never said women don't have unfairness to deal with. Was just trying to give a guys' perspective on that particular issue.


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19 Jul 2012, 2:00 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
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Kjas wrote:
I have to admit that objectication bothers me when it goes too far - on both sides. In most ways I find male gender roles just as annoying as the female ones - just obviously in different areas....The freedom of choice is more important to me than whatever gender role is set.

I can handle gender roles to an certain extent, but I believe there should be room for "customization" on both sides. I have no desire to be put into a peg hole and I wouldn't want to do that to any guy I dated either. I would never be able to do the whole "soccer mom" or "housewife" thing. I think it might just be easier if people discuss and agree on mutual expectations between each other, whatever they may be.

QFT.
this is about 70% of 'what feminism means' to me.

I suspect I would like feminism a lot better if it were more about this and less about being PC and using 'correct' terminology and verbiage.

This IS what feminism is about, to actual feminists (as opposed to the straw-feminists portrayed in popular culture).



LKL
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19 Jul 2012, 2:01 pm

Holding the door is just a matter of logistics - it depends on who gets there first, and what angles they approach at; if you'd have to cross in front of someone in order to enter, it's easier and more polite to hold it for them regardless of their gender and yours.



mds_02
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19 Jul 2012, 3:04 pm

LKL wrote:
This IS what feminism is about, to actual feminists (as opposed to the straw-feminists portrayed in popular culture).


You really like that word. Kinda clever too, I'll grant that. The only problem is that you're denying the existence of people some of us have actually met. This idea you seem to have, that all women who describe themselves as feminist have the same ideals as you or that those who do not are not "actual feminists," is simply false. Honestly, it comes off as a bit arrogant.


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minervx
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19 Jul 2012, 7:09 pm

Some of you have posted some really intelligent comments. The rest on here, is just typical corny irrelevant Aspie posts that make me want to vomit my lunch.



donnie_darko
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20 Jul 2012, 1:15 am

Feminism is a complex of victimhood.



Zinia
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20 Jul 2012, 1:37 am

This is the definition of feminism from the Miriam Webster dictionary:

Definition of FEMINISM
1
: the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2
: organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests

I agree with the first definition--and this is how I view feminism. Believing in equality between men and women. Period.

I'm a feminist. I love to cook--and have no problem cooking regularly. I would gladly accept responsibilities such as cooking, for oil changes, or other stuff I don't know how to do. However, I would never date any man who wasn't a feminist, nor will I ever stop being a feminist.

Why would I have a problem with believing that I'm equal to a man (believing that my vagina doesn't somehow demote me or raise me above a person who has a different set of sexual organs)?

Of course, there are branches of feminism that I disagree with, and there are branches that I agree with in theory. Just because people argue about HOW equality should be realized, doesn't mean that I am going to throw out the notion of being considered an equal human being (or really, it doesn't mean I'm going to accept the idea that I should be deemed unequal to half the population because of my sex).



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20 Jul 2012, 1:46 am

I think some here may be mistakenly assuming that only those who describe themselves as feminist believe in equality. Use whatever words you wish to describe yourself, identify with whatever movement you please. But do not assume that everyone who finds fault with the feminist movement opposes gender equality.


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Kjas
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20 Jul 2012, 1:47 am

Maybe it's just me, but I see equality as a human rights issue. Meaning, as per the Charter, everyeone has the right not be discriminated against on the basis of gender or sex.

Thinking of someone as a lesser human being because they are of the opposite sex or gender is discrimination.

To me, feminism was another backlash against a power construct (in this case, patriarchy). I dislike power constructs to start with - including but not limited to patriarchy. But feminism seems to have become a power construct of it's own along the way - and that is the inherent problem I see with it.

If people saw this as a human rights issue - which it essentially is - and that it was caused by one power construct that was ruling supreme to change, and another that has recently come into the picture, it might make things easier to sort out because much of the "personal gender war" part of it could be taken out of it - no point self identifying with a power construct when it hurts every human being, regardless of which power construct you support, is there?


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Zinia
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20 Jul 2012, 1:49 am

As for the gender roles question. I think most HUMANS get socialized into roles--and most tend to uphold them, while still changing them a little.

I suppose it's probably more likely that people will have a problem with their role if it seems unfair, or if it is uncomfortable. For example--if it was a female gender role to go to college, get a well paying job, control the house and the finances, and make all the political decisions that affect society---then I imagine there would be less women struggling against it because of the privileges delivered by that set of roles.

If say, male gender roles dictated that men were not allowed to go to college, make any decisions outside of how the housekeeping is done, participate in any leadership roles, or own any property or finances, then I imagine that there would be more men getting uncomfortable with their gender roles--and I dare say, maybe even a wee bit "cattish."

Fortunately, thanks to feminism--women are legally considered equal in a lot of nations. Yay! That's why I will always be a feminist.



Zinia
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20 Jul 2012, 2:06 am

mds_02 wrote:
I think some here may be mistakenly assuming that only those who describe themselves as feminist believe in equality. Use whatever words you wish to describe yourself, identify with whatever movement you please. But do not assume that everyone who finds fault with the feminist movement opposes gender equality.


I find fault with parts of the feminist movement, and I don't oppose gender equality--so I would never assume that.

However, I find it pretty sad that so many people characterize the movement by a small minority of radical feminists that fundamentally disagree with the majority of feminists throughout history.

It's like assuming that Christians are all unified by bigotry and hatred, just because of the existence of the KKK.



Zinia
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20 Jul 2012, 2:08 am

Kjas wrote:
Maybe it's just me, but I see equality as a human rights issue. Meaning, as per the Charter, everyeone has the right not be discriminated against on the basis of gender or sex.

Thinking of someone as a lesser human being because they are of the opposite sex or gender is discrimination.

To me, feminism was another backlash against a power construct (in this case, patriarchy). I dislike power constructs to start with - including but not limited to patriarchy. But feminism seems to have become a power construct of it's own along the way - and that is the inherent problem I see with it.

If people saw this as a human rights issue - which it essentially is - and that it was caused by one power construct that was ruling supreme to change, and another that has recently come into the picture, it might make things easier to sort out because much of the "personal gender war" part of it could be taken out of it - no point self identifying with a power construct when it hurts every human being, regardless of which power construct you support, is there?


I don't see how feminism is a power construct, could you explain this to me?



mds_02
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20 Jul 2012, 2:25 am

Zinia wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
I think some here may be mistakenly assuming that only those who describe themselves as feminist believe in equality. Use whatever words you wish to describe yourself, identify with whatever movement you please. But do not assume that everyone who finds fault with the feminist movement opposes gender equality.


I find fault with parts of the feminist movement, and I don't oppose gender equality--so I would never assume that.

However, I find it pretty sad that so many people characterize the movement by a small minority of radical feminists that fundamentally disagree with the majority of feminists throughout history.

It's like assuming that Christians are all unified by bigotry and hatred, just because of the existence of the KKK.


I don't assume that every feminist is like that minority. However, it has been my experience that the feminist movement provides a cover for them. That too many feminists will defend the anti-male extremists. That others will deny they exist. That mistaken beliefs common to the majority of feminists are what fuel the hateful minority. And that the feminist movement as a whole prefers to ignore any issue that impacts men more than it does women. None of this is the same as saying that all feminists hate men.

I find too many faults with the movement as a whole to be able to, in good conscience, identify myself with it. This does not mean that I oppose equality.


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Well as life gets longer, awful feels softer. 
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