Any Stalinists around these parts?

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nominalist
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01 Aug 2012, 6:11 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

I just looked him up on Wikipedia. His picture looks a bit like Jeremy Irons.

Steiner was a good guy. I have almost nothing in common with him, theologically, but I respect him.

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nominalist
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01 Aug 2012, 6:13 am

Jacoby wrote:

Defining Hitler as far right shows the flaw in defining politics in a right-left spectrum. It's a farce, Hitler brought statism and collectivism to its very extreme just Stalin's Russia did. Instead of the proletariat and class, fascism focuses more on the state or race but effectively it's pretty close to same.

I agree that there are some problems with the categories. My problem is not with that issue. It is with people spinning it to suit their political agendas.

Jacoby wrote:

Associating liberalism with fascism is just as bad. I didn't read Jonah Goldberg's book but liberalism as defined in the modern American sense is so warped and twisted from what liberalism actually is that it nobody knows what up or down is anymore. I'm sure Jonah Goldberg was using the modern definition of American liberalism which is used interchangeably with progressivism and in that case I think I would agree with his premise.

Specifically, liberalism, classically, is what most Americans think of as conservatism. More broadly, both modern conservatism and liberalism (progressivism) are forms of Enlightenment liberalism or rationalism.

ruveyn
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01 Aug 2012, 9:24 am

JakobVirgil wrote:

I think someone in intellectual history would show what?
That Marxism is Hegelian and Fascism Nietzschean but the ideas of both
go back to the grand poo-bah of nonsense Plato. Noble Lies and such.

Friedrich Nietzsche would have dismissed Nazi-ism on the grounds of its primary and primordial anti-semitism. F.N. broke with Richard Wagner on precisely that issue.

It was F.N 's -sister- Elizabeth, that rebranded her brother as a proto Nazi and Nazi hero

F.N. was as crazy as a coot (the result of tertiary syphilis), but he was no racist Nazi like Richard Wagner was.

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Declension
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01 Aug 2012, 9:35 am

What on earth is there to like about Stalin? All he ever managed to do was to bring certain left-wing ideas into disrepute by claiming to represent them. At least Hitler actually represented what he claimed to represent.

ruveyn
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01 Aug 2012, 9:36 am

Declension wrote:

Hitler started his political life on the Left.

ruveyn

Declension
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01 Aug 2012, 9:42 am

ruveyn wrote:

Declension wrote:

Hitler started his political life on the Left.

ruveyn

Hitler was "far-right", in the technical meaning of "far-right" which basically means "like Hitler". But I don't think that "far-right" is actually to the "right" of "right". These words are stupid. The European "far right" has always involved some collectivist ideas, and it still does to this day. Basically, the European far right goes like this: "Collectivism is a good idea, but it only works if we can trust each other, and we can only trust each other if we first get rid of the INSERT GROUP HERE".

Although I think that "right" is a word that is almost broken beyond repair, I think that "left" has the useful (if self-serving) meaning of "destroying hierarchies whenever they do not agree with some foundational principle". In this sense, I think that American libertarians are "left" (although very confused).

Tequila
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01 Aug 2012, 9:50 am

Declension wrote:

Actually, a good few of the "far-right" parties in Europe have very, very left-wing economic policies. The BNP was described as "[Old] Labour with racism" by Norman Tebbit and I think that description is not too far from the truth - it is very pro-nationalisation and very protectionist. Britain's National Front has an almost communistic economic policy. The Front National of France is similarly protectionist.

I advise Americans against using the "far-right" term to mean libertarianism unless they want to be dumped in with the BNP and Jobbik-style parties.

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01 Aug 2012, 9:58 am

Interestingly, here's the Jobbik campaign video:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuR0hO4uX7E[/youtube]

Pretty revolting, I'd say. They have some insane policies - wanting pre-1918 borders, scapegoating Jews and Americans (and threatening a fight with the U.S.) and more...

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01 Aug 2012, 9:59 am

Declension wrote:

LEFT means ideologically anti-capitalist. RIGHT means ideologically pro State or pro Government.

Remember that Marx's Communism was supposed to go along with the withering away of the State.

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01 Aug 2012, 10:18 am

ruveyn wrote:

LEFT means ideologically anti-capitalist.

That's far too specific. Remember, "pure" capitalism is a relatively recent idea, and not only that, but it is a recent idea that has never been implemented.

I agree that LEFT means "anti-". But it could mean "anti-X" for any hierarchy X which happens to exist at the time. In the past, the intellectual ancestors of the left have been anti-feudalism, anti-capitalism, anti-monarchy, anti-religion, anti-slavery, anti-patriarchy, anti-racism, anti-fascism, even anti-Stalinism!

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01 Aug 2012, 10:34 am

Tequila wrote:

Pretty revolting, I'd say. They have some insane policies - wanting pre-1918 borders, scapegoating Jews and Americans (and threatening a fight with the U.S.) and more...

Yet they have more than 10% of seats in Hungary's National Assembly. Slightly more than Golden Dawn in Greece, who have 6% of seats and about 7% of votes. And I'll try to understand why - in the video, they mention gypsies. A Romanian I know literally said he was glad the gypsies were moving elsewhere through the European Union so Romania didn't have to deal with them anymore. These people seem to cause a lot of trouble wherever they go - there are rumours that they drove two cars into a town hall here recently, setting it on fire and burning it down, because they had trouble with local authorities telling them they couldn't just squat expensive land.

Additionally, with the economic and political turmoil several countries in that region are going through, it's not really surprising that people are fed up. They might vote for non-extremist parties in good times, but in bad times, they have nothing to lose. Greece is entering a deeper recession than ever, there are reports of children being malnourished because of widespread poverty, and it's expected to start defaulting on its debts by September by the IMF and by August 20 by a Greek sub-minister. That's the cost of European Union idealism, yet they fail to admit it. The protectorate needs to end.

Bad times give rise to bad ideologies.

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01 Aug 2012, 10:43 am

HisDivineMajesty wrote:

Yet they have more than 10% of seats in Hungary's National Assembly.

They're the third-largest party in their parliament.

AspieRogue

01 Aug 2012, 10:50 am

Conservatives are hierarchical. The movement itself was a reaction to the liberalism of the enlightenment which was seen as a threat to the status quo. Preserving the social order is their objective. Fascists are conservatives who embrace nationalism and warlike foreign policies as their goal is empire building. Stalin's main focus was building and developing the USSR rather than imperial endeavors.

ruveyn
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01 Aug 2012, 11:28 am

AspieRogue wrote:

How can you behold what he did in Eastern Europe following "The Great Patriotic War" and say that?

ruveyn

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01 Aug 2012, 12:08 pm

nominalist wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

How so? I was completely transparent in my methods and intent.
One really can not expect more honesty than that.

Transparency and honesty are not the same.

sez you. I why should I trust you? You don't even disclose your methods.

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01 Aug 2012, 12:16 pm

ruveyn wrote:

JakobVirgil wrote:

I think someone in intellectual history would show what?
That Marxism is Hegelian and Fascism Nietzschean but the ideas of both
go back to the grand poo-bah of nonsense Plato. Noble Lies and such.

The uber-mensch biz not the racism and for Marx the silly faith in the dialectic.
But both believe in the Noble Lie and other platonic claptrap.

Is funny how Mz. Rosenbaum thought she was a Anti-Platonist and a Devotee of Nietzche but that women was dumb enough to believe anything.

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