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GGPViper
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16 Nov 2012, 2:31 pm

Mikkel wrote:
What if I said the Israelis and the Palestinians equally have a right to their own viable state?


Israel agreed on this way back in 1947. Then the Palestinians attacked in collaboration with several Islamic states...

Mahmoud Abbas himself admits how completely idiotic this move was.
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/ ... 74249.html



Raymond_Fawkes
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16 Nov 2012, 2:32 pm

GGPViper wrote:
MDD123 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Then the GDP of Israel would drop by 1.2 percent, and the US federal expenditures would drop by 0.08 percent.

Now, I answered your question. Care to answer mine?


Then we'd keep our money and our excess land, and Israel can continue to defend and react using its own resources.


Which is basically what they are doing today. Defending and reacting.


Defending, reacting, and oppressing others while illegally continue occupying and taking over Palestinian territories.



GGPViper
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16 Nov 2012, 2:41 pm

Raymond_Fawkes wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
MDD123 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Then the GDP of Israel would drop by 1.2 percent, and the US federal expenditures would drop by 0.08 percent.

Now, I answered your question. Care to answer mine?


Then we'd keep our money and our excess land, and Israel can continue to defend and react using its own resources.


Which is basically what they are doing today. Defending and reacting.


Defending, reacting, and oppressing others while illegally continue occupying and taking over Palestinian territories.


There *are* no Palestinian territories, as per my previous post.

Oh, and should we perhaps compare the oppression of Israel with the oppression of the Palestinian territories?

You mentioned restrictions on buying land, as I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_land_laws

Hmm..

And I'm not even going to mention the rules set down by Hamas. That's would be too easy...



Raymond_Fawkes
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16 Nov 2012, 2:45 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Raymond_Fawkes wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
MDD123 wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Then the GDP of Israel would drop by 1.2 percent, and the US federal expenditures would drop by 0.08 percent.

Now, I answered your question. Care to answer mine?


Then we'd keep our money and our excess land, and Israel can continue to defend and react using its own resources.


Which is basically what they are doing today. Defending and reacting.


Defending, reacting, and oppressing others while illegally continue occupying and taking over Palestinian territories.


There *are* no Palestinian territories, as per my previous post.

Oh, and should we perhaps compare the oppression of Israel with the oppression of the Palestinian territories?

You mentioned restrictions on buying land, as I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_land_laws

Hmm..

And I'm not even going to mention the rules set down by Hamas. That's would be too easy...


You're right. That whole area - It must have been deserted, barren lands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and ... id_analogy



Tequila
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16 Nov 2012, 2:53 pm

GGPViper wrote:
You mentioned restrictions on buying land, as I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_land_laws


In Israel, most of the land is owned by the government (the Land Administration takes care of it). Israelis - Jews and Arabs alike - have equal say on sharing out the land. There is a small amount of land (around 10%) that is NOT owned by the government, and there are no restrictions on buying and sharing that either.

I shall call this the 'land libel'.

Compare that with the PA, and, especially, Hamas.



Raymond_Fawkes
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16 Nov 2012, 2:57 pm

Tequila wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
You mentioned restrictions on buying land, as I recall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_land_laws


In Israel, most of the land is owned by the government (the Land Administration takes care of it). Israelis - Jews and Arabs alike - have equal say on sharing out the land. There is a small amount of land (around 10%) that is NOT owned by the government, and there are no restrictions on buying and sharing that either.

I shall call this the 'land libel'.

Compare that with the PA, and, especially, Hamas.


Critics of Israeli policy say that "a system of control" in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, including Jewish-only settlements, separate roads, military checkpoints, discriminatory marriage law, the West Bank barrier, use of Palestinians as cheap labour, Palestinian West Bank enclaves, inequities in infrastructure, legal rights, and access to land and resources between Palestinians and Israeli residents in the Israeli-occupied territories resembles some aspects of the South African apartheid regime, and that elements of Israel's occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law.[4] Some commentators extend the analogy, or accusation, to include Arab citizens of Israel, describing their citizenship status as second-class.[12]- This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about.



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16 Nov 2012, 2:58 pm

Raymond_Fawkes wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Israel is a flawed democracy rather than a full democracy (the press freedom there is somewhat poorer than that of Europe, Canada or the US), but the Arabs are probably halting the development a bit.


Yet the Arabs living in Israel have full and equal rights as Israeli citizens. They can vote and elect Arab members of parliament that call for the destruction of Israel.

Would that kind of nonsense be tolerated in most Arab countries? I think not.


lol

1. Did you know that non-Jewish Israelis cannot buy or lease land in Israel? A Jew from any country in the world is guaranteed citizenship in Israel, while the Palestinians who have been there for centuries are oppressed and persecuted.

2. Did you know that instead of sewing an insignia on clothing to distinguish race (like the Germans did to the Jews before WW2), Palestinian license plates in Israel are color coded to distinguish Jews from non-Jews?

3. Did you know that East Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights are all considered by the entire world community, including the United States and the United Nations, to be occupied territory and NOT part of the State of Israel?

4. Did you know that Israel allots 85% of the water resources for Jews, and the remaining 15% is divided among all Palestinians in the territories? For example in Hebron, 85% of the water is set aside for about 400 Jewish settlers, while the remaining 15% is distributed among Hebron's 120, 000 Palestinians?

5. Did you know that the United States awards Israel $11 billion in aid each year from American tax dollars?

6. Did you know that US aid to Israel ($11 billion annually) exceeds the aid the US grants to the entire African continent? This aid is used both to buy American weaponry and to buy arms made in Israel.

7. Did you know that Israel is awaiting an additional $4 billion worth of American military hardware, including new F-16s and Apache and Blackhawk helicopters. As Israel's main ally and supporter internationally, the United States is committed to maintaining the Jewish state's "qualitative edge" in weapons over its neighbors.

8. Did you know that the U.S. administration has notified Congress on numerous occasions that Israel has violated the rules on how US-supplied weapons are used? (In 1978, 1979 and 1982 during fighting in Lebanon, and once after Israel's bombing of an Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981.)

9. Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections from its sites?

10. Did you know that high-ranking military officers in the Israeli Defense Forces have admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war have been summarily executed by the Israeli forces?

11. Did you know that Israel blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a US warship in international waters (the USS Liberty), killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors and the US did nothing about it?

12. Did you know that Israel stands in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council Resolutions?

13. Did you know that Israel is explicitly dedicated to the policy of maintaining a distinct Jewish character?

14. Did you know that Israel's ex Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, was found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent Palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood?

15. Did you know that on May 20, 1990, a group of unarmed Palestinian laborers were lined up and murdered by an Israeli solider as they sat waiting for transportation back to Gaza? The terrified laborers who gathered in an area of southern Israel known as Rishon Lezion (known to Palestinians by its Arabic name Oyon Qara) handed their ID cards to the Israeli soldier. The soldiers ordered the distressed laborers to kneel down and face the ground and unexpectedly showered them with a barrage of bullets, killing seven and wounding many others. Needless to say, the soldier was not charged with any crime.

16. Did you know that until as recently as 1988, Israelis were permitted to run "Jews Only" job ads?

17. Did you know that the Israeli Foreign Ministry pays six US public relations firms to promote a "positive image" of Israel to the American public?

18. Did you know that Sharon's coalition government includes a party--Molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all Palestinians from the occupied territories?

19. Did you know that recently-declassified documents indicate that David Ben-Gurion approved of the forced expulsion of Arabs from all Palestininan territory in 1948?

20. Did you know that the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel's third largest political party) openly advocates a 'Final Solution' to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."

I found this on the web.. kind of funny how you said Arabs have full and equal rights.


I know that you found it on the web. To be specific, you found it on Mission Islam, a web-site who thinks that the New World Order exists and that the world is ruled by a global zionistic conspiracy. Try sources that are not islamists or wannabe activists from the left-wing (you know: The kind who wears a Che Guevara T-shirt but flaunts his Kony activism on Facebook).

- Did you know that Israel is the only Middle-Eastern country not classified as a dictatorship or hybrid regime by human rights organizations?

- Did you know that Israel was the first Middle-Eastern country to abolish the death penalty?

- Did you know that Hamas deliberately places military buildings near residental areas?

- Did you know that most Hamas missiles are aimed at random civilian targets?

- Did you know that Hamas use women and children as human shields?

- Did you know that Hamas has officially banned homosexuality?

- Did you know that Israel gives Palestinian territories free electricity and free purified water?

- Did you know that Gaza has censorship as strict as China (according to Reporters without Borders)

- Did you know that muslims are exempt from military service in Israel?

- Did you know that the executions per capita on the Gaza strip in times of peace are among the highest in the world?

- Did you know that Israel is the only country in the Middle East that allows homosexual couples to adopt?

- Did you know that Israel is secular?

- Did you know that Hamas are trying to implement Sharia laws?

- Did you know that all of the muslims removed by force in 1947 was offered their properties back, free of charge in 1949?

- Did you know that no jews forcefully removed from their homes in Arab countries was offered the same?

- Did you know that more than 5 million hindus were forcefully removed from their homes when Pakistan was created, and that no pseudointellectual socialist who pretends to care ever writes about this?

- Did you know that 4,5 million muslims were removed by force from India when Pakistan was created?

- Did you know that anyone with a citizenship has the right to own property in Israel?

- Did you know that in 1948, all Arab countries except for Egypt and Lebanon stripped jews of their citizenships?

- Did you know that Palestine never existed, and that what was once the Ottoman Empire is still mostly muslim?



Raymond_Fawkes
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16 Nov 2012, 3:02 pm

The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal.[8] Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are also considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognise Israel's annexations of these territories.[9] The United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[10][11] The International Court of Justice[12] also says these settlements are illegal,[13][14] and no foreign government supports Israel's settlements.[15] In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and "runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations."[16] Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US.[17][18]



Tequila
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16 Nov 2012, 3:05 pm

Kurgan wrote:
- Did you know that in 1948, all Arab countries except for Egypt and Lebanon stripped jews of their citizenships?


Quick point about this: the very very last Jewish synagogue in Egypt was forcibly shut down in August (http://frontpagemag.com/2012/dgreenfield/egypt-shuts-down-last-jewish-synagogue/). There remains a tiny, tiny handful (less than 100 in 2004, and probably less than 50 today) pf Jews in Egypt. Most of the tens of thousands of Jews that were in the country after 1948 left, fled or were forced out of their countries (the ones that weren't murdered) and many chose Israel, the U.S. or other countries.



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16 Nov 2012, 3:11 pm

Raymond_Fawkes wrote:
Critics of Israeli policy say that "a system of control" in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, including Jewish-only settlements, separate roads, military checkpoints, discriminatory marriage law, the West Bank barrier, use of Palestinians as cheap labour, Palestinian West Bank enclaves, inequities in infrastructure, legal rights, and access to land and resources between Palestinians and Israeli residents in the Israeli-occupied territories resembles some aspects of the South African apartheid regime, and that elements of Israel's occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law.[4] Some commentators extend the analogy, or accusation, to include Arab citizens of Israel, describing their citizenship status as second-class.[12]- This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

Raymond_Fawkes wrote:
The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal.[8] Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are also considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognise Israel's annexations of these territories.[9] The United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[10][11] The International Court of Justice[12] also says these settlements are illegal,[13][14] and no foreign government supports Israel's settlements.[15] In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and "runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations."[16] Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US.[17][18]


Source, dammit. I assume it is Wiki in this case, but please give credit to the original authors.



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16 Nov 2012, 3:18 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Raymond_Fawkes wrote:
Critics of Israeli policy say that "a system of control" in the Israeli-occupied West Bank, including Jewish-only settlements, separate roads, military checkpoints, discriminatory marriage law, the West Bank barrier, use of Palestinians as cheap labour, Palestinian West Bank enclaves, inequities in infrastructure, legal rights, and access to land and resources between Palestinians and Israeli residents in the Israeli-occupied territories resembles some aspects of the South African apartheid regime, and that elements of Israel's occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law.[4] Some commentators extend the analogy, or accusation, to include Arab citizens of Israel, describing their citizenship status as second-class.[12]- This is the kind of stuff I'm talking about.

Raymond_Fawkes wrote:
The international community considers the settlements in occupied territory to be illegal.[8] Israeli neighborhoods in East Jerusalem and communities in the Golan Heights, areas which have been annexed by Israel, are also considered settlements by the international community, which does not recognise Israel's annexations of these territories.[9] The United Nations has repeatedly upheld the view that Israel's construction of settlements constitutes violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.[10][11] The International Court of Justice[12] also says these settlements are illegal,[13][14] and no foreign government supports Israel's settlements.[15] In April 2012, UN secretary general Ban Ki-Moon, in response to moves by Israel to legalise Israeli outposts, reiterated that all settlement activity is illegal, and "runs contrary to Israel's obligations under the Road Map and repeated Quartet calls for the parties to refrain from provocations."[16] Similar criticism was advanced by the EU and the US.[17][18]


Source, dammit. I assume it is Wiki in this case, but please give credit to the original authors.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internatio ... ettlements

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and ... id_analogy

On the wiki pages, just click the citation and it takes you to it.



androbot2084
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16 Nov 2012, 3:48 pm

How about a food for peace program?



GGPViper
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16 Nov 2012, 3:49 pm

Raymond_Fawkes wrote:


I know how to navigate a Wiki page, thank you :roll:.

Now, are you going to present any argument, or are you just selectively copy-pasting?



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16 Nov 2012, 4:00 pm

A little tip: If you Google stuff without any prior research, just to prove someone you disagree with wrong, you're gonna lose.



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16 Nov 2012, 5:02 pm

The palestinian animals need to be tamed, their blood-based views replaced with love, their clanism and familism replaced with citizenship of the world, and opt out their love of death, and adopt instead a culture that values all life.

They need to live alongside those who are different then them in peace. Palestinians do not want to live alongside Israeli's. Muslims in general do not.

The middle east needs to open up to the world, it should be a great place that Christians and Buddhists and Hindu's and Atheists and Jews from the world over should want to move to, have rights and protections extended to them, and want to raise a family in. But the MIddle East is not the United States or the Western world. It is the backwater of humanity, a placed occupied by primitives, and defended the world over by 1st world leftists who share no values with them whatsoever.


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16 Nov 2012, 5:04 pm

MarketAndChurch wrote:
It is the backwater of humanity, a placed occupied by primitives, and defended the world over by 1st world leftists who share no values with them whatsoever.


And that's the important bit. If anything, the leftists - the real ones - share far more in common with Israel and her defence of the rights of women, gay people and minorities. All this goes out of the window when they see people being 'oppressed' though.