William Tecumseh Sherman: Hero, or Villain?

Page 4 of 9 [ 138 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 9  Next


William Tecumseh Sherman was a
hero 44%  44%  [ 8 ]
villain 33%  33%  [ 6 ]
just show the results 22%  22%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 18

Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,481
Location: Aux Arcs

15 Dec 2012, 1:20 pm

excerpt from

Ode to the Confederate Dead

Row after row with strict impunity
The headstones yield their names to the elements.
The wind whirls without recollection;
In the riven troughs the splayed leaves
Pile up,of nature the casual sacrament
To the seasonal eternity of death....
Turn your eyes to the immoderate past,
Turn to the inscrutable infantry rising
Demons out of the earth-they will not last,
Stonewall,Stonewall,and the sunken fields of hemp........
-Alan Tate



Last edited by Misslizard on 15 Dec 2012, 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

15 Dec 2012, 2:24 pm

DAMN!
This thread got to all of four pages in less than one day!

The crimes Sherman commited were crimes against property, and not against people.
He did not perpetrate anything like the My Lai massacre, or Ledice, or Hiroshima.

His march to sea from Atlanta to Savanah that laid waste to the sixty mile wide swath of georgia was the "nineteenth century equivalent of a bombing raid"- in the words of historian Bruce Catton.

He wounded the enemy's abilty to make war, and thus shortened the war. Thus actually saving lives. But though it was similiar in concept to the allied strategic bombing of Germany in world war two because he made war on the enemy's economy ( in addition to fighting his armies) , unlike the allied air campain aginst Germany - very few civilians were killed. So basically he destroyed property to save lives on both sides by ending the war faster. So on balance I would call him a "nonvillian". Niether "hero" no "villian" feels right for me.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

15 Dec 2012, 2:30 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
DAMN!
This thread got to all of four pages in less than one day!

The crimes Sherman commited were crimes against property, and not against people.
He did not perpetrate anything like the My Lai massacre, or Ledice, or Hiroshima.

e.


They were not crimes. They were military operations and completely legal under U.S. law.

The A-bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were also legal under the Geneva conventions at the time. Both cities housing troops and weapons and were therefore kosher targets. Neither city declared itself an open unarmed city. The U.S did not use gas or chemical weapons on either city. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were clean operations. As was the fire bombing of Tokyo which killed more people than either of the A-bombs did. The Tokyo fire raid killed 250,000 and dehoused 1.25 million.

ruveyn



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

15 Dec 2012, 4:55 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Would you rather your sister date Lee or Sherman?


http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/200 ... bert-e-lee

Quote:
...For her newly published biography, Reading the Man: A Portrait of Robert E. Lee Through His Private Letters, historian Elizabeth Brown Pryor draws on a cache of previously unknown Lee family papers, discovered in 2002 in two sturdy wooden trunks that Lee's daughter stored in a Virginia bank about a century ago. ...

A lot of those letters are very foxy. He's obviously attracted to women and likes to write naughty notes to them...


If I'd had a sister, and Rob Lee had sent her a naughty note, then I would have had no choice but to challenge him to a duel. :shameonyou:



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

15 Dec 2012, 5:00 pm

Raptor wrote:
What is meant by "stringent" in this case is not clear. Robert E. Lee, however, was never been known to be cruel or sadistic so it's safe to say that it's not what you're hoping for; use of the whip. :roll:


http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/200 ... bert-e-lee

Quote:
What were his views on slavery?

These papers are filled with information about slavery. This is not something you have to read between the lines; Lee really tells us how he feels. He saw slaves as property, that he owned them and their labor. Now you can say he wasn't worse than anyone; he was reflecting the values of the society that he lived in. I would say, he wasn't any better than anyone else, either.

It is shocking how he treated his father-in-law's slaves.

Lee's wife inherited 196 slaves upon her father's death in 1857. The will stated that the slaves were to be freed within five years, and at the same time large legacies—raised from selling property—should be given to the Lee children. But as the executor of the will, Lee decided that instead of freeing the slaves right away—as they expected—he could continue to own and work them for five years in an effort to make the estates profitable and not have to sell the property.

What happened after that?

Lee was considered a hard taskmaster. He also started hiring slaves to other families, sending them away, and breaking up families that had been together on the estate for generations. The slaves resented him, were terrified they would never be freed, and they lost all respect for him. There were many runaways, and at one point several slaves jumped him, claiming they were as free as he. Lee ordered these men to be severely whipped. He also petitioned the court to extend their servitude, but the court ruled against him and Lee did grant them their freedom on Jan. 1, 1863—ironically, the same day that Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation went into effect.



Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

15 Dec 2012, 5:13 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
What is meant by "stringent" in this case is not clear. Robert E. Lee, however, was never been known to be cruel or sadistic so it's safe to say that it's not what you're hoping for; use of the whip. :roll:


http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/200 ... bert-e-lee

Quote:
What were his views on slavery?

These papers are filled with information about slavery. This is not something you have to read between the lines; Lee really tells us how he feels. He saw slaves as property, that he owned them and their labor. Now you can say he wasn't worse than anyone; he was reflecting the values of the society that he lived in. I would say, he wasn't any better than anyone else, either.

It is shocking how he treated his father-in-law's slaves.

Lee's wife inherited 196 slaves upon her father's death in 1857. The will stated that the slaves were to be freed within five years, and at the same time large legacies—raised from selling property—should be given to the Lee children. But as the executor of the will, Lee decided that instead of freeing the slaves right away—as they expected—he could continue to own and work them for five years in an effort to make the estates profitable and not have to sell the property.

What happened after that?

Lee was considered a hard taskmaster. He also started hiring slaves to other families, sending them away, and breaking up families that had been together on the estate for generations. The slaves resented him, were terrified they would never be freed, and they lost all respect for him. There were many runaways, and at one point several slaves jumped him, claiming they were as free as he. Lee ordered these men to be severely whipped. He also petitioned the court to extend their servitude, but the court ruled against him and Lee did grant them their freedom on Jan. 1, 1863—ironically, the same day that Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation went into effect.


Nice fairytale. :D
Could be used, I guess, as the base for a trashy novel....


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,481
Location: Aux Arcs

15 Dec 2012, 5:31 pm

AP,what if you caught Sherman groping her?He just looks like a groper.Would you throw your glove down then?Sherman looks like he would cheat,he'd throw sand in your face and ravish your sister,than burn down your house and shoot the dogs.Of course he would help himself to the valuable goods inside.If you had any good cigars or liquor you could kiss it good-bye.

But if that's true about Lee and the treatment of slaves than it is a black mark against his character.



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

15 Dec 2012, 5:40 pm

Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,481
Location: Aux Arcs

15 Dec 2012, 5:51 pm

Looks like the women of color got treated badly by the Union soldiers,now thats rough when your liberators treat you no differently than some of the slave holders.
I bet Sherman spent lots of time in those camps full of soiled doves,he looks like a old smut hound.But if he drank as much as they say,he may have had ED,this made him mad so he took his aggression out on poor Georgia.



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

16 Dec 2012, 9:37 am

Those Southern history textbooks don't have anything nice to say about the Great Liberator at all, do they?



Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,481
Location: Aux Arcs

16 Dec 2012, 11:30 am

Yes,they do.It said"The President was a FRIEND of the war torn South".
And that the South would have been treated better if he had lived.



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

16 Dec 2012, 11:32 am

I would have thought that Southern textbooks would have been more sympathetic to Johnson.



Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,481
Location: Aux Arcs

16 Dec 2012, 12:06 pm

^^^^^Not really,it is rather venomous towards the radical republicans,claims they de-railed Lincoln's plan for the South.He's not mentioned that much.
There is a lot about the (Brooks/Baxter war)and the end of the carpetbag government when Pres.Grant advised recognition of Brooks as governor and adoption of the Poland report.
Later on Augustus Garland,Democrat became Govenor and conditions began to improve.
Augustus Hill Garland's history is interesting,go to The Encyclopedia of Arkansas History & culture,punch in Garland's name.You should read it,he seemed to be a pretty good guy.



ArrantPariah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2012
Age: 120
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,972

16 Dec 2012, 1:23 pm

I'm starting to think that Southern History Lessons are basically

"Robert E. Lee was a perfect gentleman and a scholar. Ladies would fall into a swoon as he bowed to kissed their gloved hands.

Northern generals were uncouth ruffians and barbarians.

Anyone who thinks otherwise will receive a severe beating from the school's pedogluteophile, until he changes his mind."



Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,481
Location: Aux Arcs

16 Dec 2012, 2:03 pm

You mean you would prefer Sherman at a dinner party over Lee?
Would you discuss the arts with Sherman or Lee?
Who would you like to see Madame Butterfly with,Sherman or Lee?
Just hypothetical questions.



Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

16 Dec 2012, 2:06 pm

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
You make it too easy.

ArrantPariah wrote:
I'm starting to think that Southern History Lessons are basically

"Robert E. Lee was a perfect gentleman and a scholar.

Close enough to if for his time. As far as scholarly he was a West Point graduate who survived four years without earning a single demerit. ZERO!
Ask anyone who has been commissioned though any military academy like that and they will tell you that the instructors and upper classmen LOVE to give demerits, especially during a cadet's plebe year.
Later, Lee was the superintendent of West Point.
After the war he was the president of Washington College (Now Washington and Lee College) in Lexington.
Yeah, I guess the title of gentleman and scholar would apply.

Quote:
Ladies would fall into a swoon as he bowed to kissed their gloved hands.

Yes, probably so.
I'm detecting jealousy here.

Quote:
Northern generals were uncouth ruffians and barbarians.

There were uncouth generals on both sides I'm sure.

Quote:
Anyone who thinks otherwise will receive a severe beating from the school's pedogluteophile, until he changes his mind."

Funny, I've had public school history lessons on both sides of the Mason-Dixon and I don't recall receiving or hearing of any of these beatings....


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson