Board index › Topical Discussion › Politics, Philosophy, and Religion

I guarantee you that every "violent" verse is take

Page 4 of 8 [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

15 Jan 2013, 11:00 pm

/\ /\ /\
Better a tweaker with a pipe bomb than a jihadist with a dirty bomb......


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


Misslizard
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Jun 2012
Age: 60
Gender: Female
Posts: 20,483
Location: Aux Arcs

16 Jan 2013, 12:40 am

^^^^^I guess I would worry about that more if I lived in a big city,I guess the wind would carry it here.But since there was a pipe bomb in the store parking lot where I go a few years back it's more of a real concern.Some one left one at the Mormon tabernacle on X /mas and one at a church in a nearby county.I have no idea what is up with these a-holes.At least they don't seem to be capable of making one that would explode,so that's nice to know.


_________________
I am the dust that dances in the light. - Rumi


Evinceo
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 13 Apr 2012
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 392

16 Jan 2013, 4:44 pm

salad wrote:
the highest honor in America is dying as a veteran.


Really? I wasn't aware.



salad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2011
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,226

16 Jan 2013, 6:37 pm

Evinceo wrote:
salad wrote:
the highest honor in America is dying as a veteran.


Really? I wasn't aware.


Actually it is. it's common sense. doesnt require research. you can tell from how much americans honor their troops and immortalize them and elevate them on a pedestal of honor. A soldier KIA is honored especially.



CyborgUprising
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,963
Location: auf der Fahrt durch Niemandsland

16 Jan 2013, 6:47 pm

salad wrote:
CyborgUprising wrote:
salad wrote:
Tequila wrote:
salad wrote:
What did America do during the Aerican Revolution? Fight against the British


Did the Americans try to invade Britain in the 18th century and try to covert Britons into being Americans? That would be a more apt way of putting it.

The Islamic "self-defence" excuse is a lie, as GGPViper points out. It's a religion of war and conflict, started by a 7th century Arab warlord.


Islam never ONCE forced someone to accept Islam in history, as in go to peoples houses and say "convert or die". Muslims did invade lands conquered by the Romans and Persains, considering that they were at war with them and both empires were threats to the Muslims and .literally attempted annhiliation on the Muslims i.e. battle of Mutah., but never throughout history have Muslims actually went to peoples houses and said convert or die, and if they did, it probably wasn't during the Caliphate of the 4 righteous: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Study the Caliphate of those 4 and tell me what you learned about their justice in dealing with Non Muslims. Remember, their names are Abu Bakr, Umar ibn Al Khattab, Uthman ibn Affan, and Ali ibn Abi Talib.

BTW, Muslims are terrorists for invading other lands? I never knew that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were non existent. oh wait......


It should be of note that I view every religion in a fair and unbiased manner (I do not view Islam as being "of the Devil," nor do I view Christianity as being all rainbows and fluffy kittens). The Ayat al-Sayf (Verse of the Sword) states:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty."

Of course, this is a hotly contested verse. Critics of Islam claim it is a call-to-arms to slay anyone who isn't a Muslim on the basis that they are unbelievers and as such, must be cleansed from the face of earth. Islamic scholars claim that the verse is meant to encourage Muslim warriors to have no inhibitions when it comes to slaying enemy combatants. Furthermore, the verse is referencing the Mushriks (pagans) living in Makkah, who broke a peace treaty with the Muslims. The pagans were given an ultimatum; make amends for breaking the treaty or prepare for war.
It is true that many fundamentalists have expanded the definition of "pagan" to include anyone who doesn't practice Islam (and even those Muslims who aren't "fundamental enough" to suit the radicals).

Saying that Islam has never supported the slaying of others is akin to claiming that Christianity never advocated the slaying of witches (not suffering a witch to live - Exodus 22:18 ). The simple fact is that the major global religions became predominant by the use of force.


In an idealistic world where there are no tyrants and oppressors, where people aren't evil and strive to eliminate good, then peace is required and preferred. Sadly such a world is an illusion, and if Muslims didn't use the sword they would have been wiped off the map. The Muslims even after immigrating to Madinah were targeted by Quraysh in Makkah, that is the level of staunch antagonism the Non Muslims have had towards Islam. Islam started out peaceful. And do you know how that turned out?? Ask Bilal ibn Rabah, the slave who was literally dragged across the street and wipped to near death only for saying "God is one". or how about you ask Sumaya, the old woman who was tied and stretched out for weeks in the desert and then stabbed only because she didn't worship idols. Why not you ask them how being peaceful worked out. It didn't. In a world where the truth will be targeted by those who want to extinguish it at all costs, being peaceful is fools play. Every incident where the Muslims resorted to violence, it was after peace failed. The Prophet was the target of many assassination attempts by the Jews in Madinah. Only after they broke their treaties and tried to assassinate him did he resort to disciplining them. The penalty for treason in most countries is death, and they broke numerous treaties, not one, many treaties. They were never afraid to show hostility towards the Muslims, if you were the leader of nation and there was a hostile nation who displayed numerous acts of aggression against your nation, what would you do? You need to realize being nice won't work on everybody. You can't be naive and say "turn the other cheek" with everybody.

Why does your comment seem to paint me as anti-Muslim? I'm a nonbeliever; I don't care what galactic daddy your bend your knee to. All I said is that every religion used violence to spread its ideas. That is a fact. I never bashed Islam, nor did I bash any other religion. I've read enough "sacred texts" to know what I am saying. I never told anyone to be peaceful; I couldn't care less what pathetic human scum decide to do. Where are you getting off claiming I am naïve and crowing on about "turning the other cheek?" Your reply insinuates that I am somehow culpable in "waging war against Islam." What part of Kufar/Kofar do you not comprehend? I especially like how us "non-Muslims" are so hell-bent on obliterating you guys. Alas, paranoia works on both sides. I will now leave the religious fights between the religious.



salad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2011
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,226

16 Jan 2013, 8:23 pm

CyborgUprising wrote:
salad wrote:
CyborgUprising wrote:
salad wrote:
Tequila wrote:
salad wrote:
What did America do during the Aerican Revolution? Fight against the British


Did the Americans try to invade Britain in the 18th century and try to covert Britons into being Americans? That would be a more apt way of putting it.

The Islamic "self-defence" excuse is a lie, as GGPViper points out. It's a religion of war and conflict, started by a 7th century Arab warlord.


Islam never ONCE forced someone to accept Islam in history, as in go to peoples houses and say "convert or die". Muslims did invade lands conquered by the Romans and Persains, considering that they were at war with them and both empires were threats to the Muslims and .literally attempted annhiliation on the Muslims i.e. battle of Mutah., but never throughout history have Muslims actually went to peoples houses and said convert or die, and if they did, it probably wasn't during the Caliphate of the 4 righteous: Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali. Study the Caliphate of those 4 and tell me what you learned about their justice in dealing with Non Muslims. Remember, their names are Abu Bakr, Umar ibn Al Khattab, Uthman ibn Affan, and Ali ibn Abi Talib.

BTW, Muslims are terrorists for invading other lands? I never knew that the Iraq and Afghanistan wars were non existent. oh wait......


It should be of note that I view every religion in a fair and unbiased manner (I do not view Islam as being "of the Devil," nor do I view Christianity as being all rainbows and fluffy kittens). The Ayat al-Sayf (Verse of the Sword) states:

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty."

Of course, this is a hotly contested verse. Critics of Islam claim it is a call-to-arms to slay anyone who isn't a Muslim on the basis that they are unbelievers and as such, must be cleansed from the face of earth. Islamic scholars claim that the verse is meant to encourage Muslim warriors to have no inhibitions when it comes to slaying enemy combatants. Furthermore, the verse is referencing the Mushriks (pagans) living in Makkah, who broke a peace treaty with the Muslims. The pagans were given an ultimatum; make amends for breaking the treaty or prepare for war.
It is true that many fundamentalists have expanded the definition of "pagan" to include anyone who doesn't practice Islam (and even those Muslims who aren't "fundamental enough" to suit the radicals).

Saying that Islam has never supported the slaying of others is akin to claiming that Christianity never advocated the slaying of witches (not suffering a witch to live - Exodus 22:18 ). The simple fact is that the major global religions became predominant by the use of force.


In an idealistic world where there are no tyrants and oppressors, where people aren't evil and strive to eliminate good, then peace is required and preferred. Sadly such a world is an illusion, and if Muslims didn't use the sword they would have been wiped off the map. The Muslims even after immigrating to Madinah were targeted by Quraysh in Makkah, that is the level of staunch antagonism the Non Muslims have had towards Islam. Islam started out peaceful. And do you know how that turned out?? Ask Bilal ibn Rabah, the slave who was literally dragged across the street and wipped to near death only for saying "God is one". or how about you ask Sumaya, the old woman who was tied and stretched out for weeks in the desert and then stabbed only because she didn't worship idols. Why not you ask them how being peaceful worked out. It didn't. In a world where the truth will be targeted by those who want to extinguish it at all costs, being peaceful is fools play. Every incident where the Muslims resorted to violence, it was after peace failed. The Prophet was the target of many assassination attempts by the Jews in Madinah. Only after they broke their treaties and tried to assassinate him did he resort to disciplining them. The penalty for treason in most countries is death, and they broke numerous treaties, not one, many treaties. They were never afraid to show hostility towards the Muslims, if you were the leader of nation and there was a hostile nation who displayed numerous acts of aggression against your nation, what would you do? You need to realize being nice won't work on everybody. You can't be naive and say "turn the other cheek" with everybody.

Why does your comment seem to paint me as anti-Muslim? I'm a nonbeliever; I don't care what galactic daddy your bend your knee to. All I said is that every religion used violence to spread its ideas. That is a fact. I never bashed Islam, nor did I bash any other religion. I've read enough "sacred texts" to know what I am saying. I never told anyone to be peaceful; I couldn't care less what pathetic human scum decide to do. Where are you getting off claiming I am naïve and crowing on about "turning the other cheek?" Your reply insinuates that I am somehow culpable in "waging war against Islam." What part of Kufar/Kofar do you not comprehend? I especially like how us "non-Muslims" are so hell-bent on obliterating you guys. Alas, paranoia works on both sides. I will now leave the religious fights between the religious.


You misunderstood me, sorry. I know that you're not an Anti Muslim, which is why I just responded to your post kindly trying to tell you why force was used by the Prophet. I in no way am trying to insult you or bash you, I simply responded to your post. Nothing more, nothing less.



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

16 Jan 2013, 8:46 pm

I'm anti-Islam (not anti-Muslim) because Islam itself has declared (in its holy texts) that it is violently opposed to everything I stand for. It wants to kill or subjugate (i.e. make me at best a second-class citizen in my own land) for what I believe in. It's a repulsive religion that has been spread by violence from the beginning. If Islam was a political ideology, it would be banned and seen as a disease... oh wait.

I don't have anything against Muslims as people - they're people, much like anyone else. You get some thoroughly good, decent (and very attractive!) people and some insane, foaming fanatics (but the religion helps to encourage these fanatics). Every religion has its fanatics, but, as has been said, not all fanatics are equally problematic. You have different kinds of fanatics.



LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

17 Jan 2013, 2:41 am

salad wrote:
Tequila wrote:
salad wrote:
What did America do during the Aerican Revolution? Fight against the British


Did the Americans try to invade Britain in the 18th century and try to covert Britons into being Americans? That would be a more apt way of putting it.

The Islamic "self-defence" excuse is a lie, as GGPViper points out. It's a religion of war and conflict, started by a 7th century Arab warlord.


Islam never ONCE forced someone to accept Islam in history, as in go to peoples houses and say "convert or die".

That's arguable. What's not debated at all was that they taxed non-muslims for not being muslim, and they kill those who deconvert for apostasy.
Here's another issue for the 'religion of peace,' they consider images and books more important than actual people.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19311098



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

17 Jan 2013, 7:48 am

Modern Islamic fundamentalists still demand jizya - i.e. extort money from non-Muslims - in some cases.



TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

17 Jan 2013, 8:08 am

You have only got to look at what happens to any Muslims who convert to Christianity or other religions in mainstream Islamic countries. Like the case Tequila highlighted the other day where a family in Egypt were sentenced to 15 years in prison for converting to Christianity.

Also this post from Tequila's thread:

GGPViper wrote:
Considering that 84 percent of the Muslim population in Egypt favours the death penalty for apostasy (see page 14 in the link below), I'd say the family was lucky.

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/ ... 2-2010.pdf

Well, you needn't worry.

Under the guidance of their new enlightened (and *very* eloquent at sophisticated speech, according to the link below) Ikhwan president, Mohamed Morsi, I am sure a new age of tolerance, love and friendship will be in store for the people of Egypt:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21037606



These are supposed moderate Muslims, not fundamentalist fanatics.

And Muslims wonder why people in the West have a very low opinion of Islam. :roll:


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

17 Jan 2013, 12:34 pm

TallyMan wrote:
You have only got to look at what happens to any Muslims who convert to Christianity or other religions in mainstream Islamic countries. Like the case Tequila highlighted the other day where a family in Egypt were sentenced to 15 years in prison for converting to Christianity.

Also this post from Tequila's thread:
GGPViper wrote:
Considering that 84 percent of the Muslim population in Egypt favours the death penalty for apostasy (see page 14 in the link below), I'd say the family was lucky.

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/ ... 2-2010.pdf

Well, you needn't worry.

Under the guidance of their new enlightened (and *very* eloquent at sophisticated speech, according to the link below) Ikhwan president, Mohamed Morsi, I am sure a new age of tolerance, love and friendship will be in store for the people of Egypt:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21037606



These are supposed moderate Muslims, not fundamentalist fanatics.

And Muslims wonder why people in the West have a very low opinion of Islam. :roll:


I haven't finished yet for today. There's at least two more stories I want to cover - one from Egypt, and one featuring our very homegrown Campaign for Real Ale lookalike fanatics here in good old Blighty.



salad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2011
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,226

17 Jan 2013, 7:35 pm

Tequila wrote:
Modern Islamic fundamentalists still demand jizya - i.e. extort money from non-Muslims - in some cases.


1. jizyah is less than zakah that Muslims pay

2. by paying jizya the government takes care of the non muslims and guarantees their safety, and they don't have to fight in the army, the muslims will fight for them if there's an attack. that sounds quite fair actually.



salad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2011
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,226

17 Jan 2013, 10:55 pm

TallyMan wrote:
You have only got to look at what happens to any Muslims who convert to Christianity or other religions in mainstream Islamic countries. Like the case Tequila highlighted the other day where a family in Egypt were sentenced to 15 years in prison for converting to Christianity.

Also this post from Tequila's thread:
GGPViper wrote:
Considering that 84 percent of the Muslim population in Egypt favours the death penalty for apostasy (see page 14 in the link below), I'd say the family was lucky.

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/ ... 2-2010.pdf

Well, you needn't worry.

Under the guidance of their new enlightened (and *very* eloquent at sophisticated speech, according to the link below) Ikhwan president, Mohamed Morsi, I am sure a new age of tolerance, love and friendship will be in store for the people of Egypt:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21037606



These are supposed moderate Muslims, not fundamentalist fanatics.

And Muslims wonder why people in the West have a very low opinion of Islam. :roll:


This is hypocrisy on your part. Do you know what Christianity's punishment is for becoming an apostate?? I suggest you read the book of Deuteronomy and find out......It's way more severe than Islam's punishment



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

17 Jan 2013, 11:58 pm

salad wrote:
This is hypocrisy on your part. Do you know what Christianity's punishment is for becoming an apostate?? I suggest you read the book of Deuteronomy and find out......It's way more severe than Islam's punishment


You really are being very silly.

Can you name any Christian country in the world that carries this out? Or carries out the barbaric stuff that's listed in the Bible? (I'll give you Uganda, which wants to kill gay people. There are quite a number of Caribbean countries and Christian African countries that are disgusting on the issue of LGBT rights.)

That's the point that a lot of you Muslims are (deliberately?) failing to understand. There's a lot of inhuman stuff in Christian texts, but almost none of it is carried out these days. One cannot say the same about what is in Sharia.



Last edited by Tequila on 18 Jan 2013, 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

LKL
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,402

18 Jan 2013, 12:41 am

Salad, unfortunately Tequila's right. Speaking as a pantheist, the Christian Bible contains some pretty horrific stuff, and Christians have done pretty horrific stuff in the past. Here in the US, Christians are much more problematic than are Muslims because they think that they should have the right to turn the US back into a Puritan state. Thankfully, they do not currently have any power except to drag the Republican Party down into a hole.

However, right now, there are little girls who are being killed for having been raped; there are little girls being sold to old men for brides, sometimes even before puberty; there are little girls having their genitals mutilated; there are new atheists and new Christians and new Buddhists, or whatever, under threat of death for having deconverted from Islam; there are people accused of theft having their hands or feet cut off. etc, etc, etc - and ALL of this is justified by the people who do it with the phrase, 'Allah wills it.' Less than I week ago I heard a chieftain say that he had no choice but to cut off his brother-in-law's hand after he was accused of theft by the Al Quaida branch that he had deserted, with no trial but a statement of the accusation in front of some elders - 'It's not me that orders it, it is the will of God.'



Tequila
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Feb 2006
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,897
Location: Lancashire, UK

18 Jan 2013, 12:51 am

LKL wrote:
Here in the US, Christians are much more problematic than are Muslims because they think that they should have the right to turn the US back into a Puritan state.


God help you. I can imagine that it's not at all fun to be an atheist in many parts of the U.S., given the extreme hold that Christianity inanity has on much of the country.

Amongst First World, Western countries, the U.S. is pretty much alone in still being hugely, stultifyingly religious compared to most of Europe or Australia/NZ. It's an unwelcome anomaly.