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The Biblical truth of Hell

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MCalavera
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28 Jan 2013, 4:48 pm

The thing is the Bible never suggests Earth was like hell at the beginning. On the contrary, it was full of waters rather than fire.



Venger
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28 Jan 2013, 4:56 pm

The bible says that the Earth was "dark and without form and void" at the very beginning which sounds like before the crust of the Earth cooled. I've also heard before that it says somewhere in the bible that time passes much faster from God's perspective. So 7 days would be millions or billions of years from God's point of view.



Bezeone
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28 Jan 2013, 4:58 pm

Suprised nobody didn't use the parable about the rich man in Hell yet. Honestly suprised! 8O



MCalavera
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28 Jan 2013, 5:03 pm

Venger wrote:
The bible says that the Earth was "dark and without form and void" at the very beginning which sounds like before the crust of the Earth cooled.


That's not what it sounds like, no.

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I've also heard before that it says somewhere in the bible that time passes much faster from God's perspective. So 7 days would be millions or billions of years from God's point of view.


Yeah. That's one interpretation among many.



Nambo
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28 Jan 2013, 5:12 pm

The following is from Revelation 20 of The King James Version.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You will notice in verse 10 that the place of eternal burning into which the sinners of verse 15 are cast, is the "Lake of Fire"

But did you notice that in verse 14, Hell itself is to be cast into the lake of fire?

So, Hell is not in fact the place of eternal torture we are lead to believe, there is plainly some misunderstanding going on amongst Christians to the extent that some translations actually say, "and Hell was cast into Hell".

Just a reminder that the worst sinner of all was Adam, and his punishment was, "dust you are, and to dust you will return".

I could go on, but long posts don't get read.



Venger
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28 Jan 2013, 5:33 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Venger wrote:
The bible says that the Earth was "dark and without form and void" at the very beginning which sounds like before the crust of the Earth cooled.


That's not what it sounds like, no.



There was probably relatively small oceans of very hot water when the Earth was forming along with the lava.



Bezeone
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28 Jan 2013, 5:37 pm

Nambo wrote:
The following is from Revelation 20 of The King James Version.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You will notice in verse 10 that the place of eternal burning into which the sinners of verse 15 are cast, is the "Lake of Fire"

But did you notice that in verse 14, Hell itself is to be cast into the lake of fire?

So, Hell is not in fact the place of eternal torture we are lead to believe, there is plainly some misunderstanding going on amongst Christians to the extent that some translations actually say, "and Hell was cast into Hell".

Just a reminder that the worst sinner of all was Adam, and his punishment was, "dust you are, and to dust you will return".

I could go on, but long posts don't get read.


Somebody else actually caught on? Consider me blown away.



MCalavera
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28 Jan 2013, 5:40 pm

Nambo wrote:
The following is from Revelation 20 of The King James Version.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You will notice in verse 10 that the place of eternal burning into which the sinners of verse 15 are cast, is the "Lake of Fire"

But did you notice that in verse 14, Hell itself is to be cast into the lake of fire?

So, Hell is not in fact the place of eternal torture we are lead to believe, there is plainly some misunderstanding going on amongst Christians to the extent that some translations actually say, "and Hell was cast into Hell".

Just a reminder that the worst sinner of all was Adam, and his punishment was, "dust you are, and to dust you will return".

I could go on, but long posts don't get read.


You see what you want to see.

It is clear that Revelation states that sinners will go to the lake of fire for eternity ... for ever and ever. Day and night.



Nambo
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28 Jan 2013, 5:52 pm

MCalavera wrote:

You see what you want to see.

It is clear that Revelation states that sinners will go to the lake of fire for eternity ... for ever and ever. Day and night.


But will they be alive to be eternally tortured by a wicked god, or will it be like the valley of Gehenna outside Jerusalem in which the dead bodies of criminals where thrown who were deemed unworthy of being buried in the Memorial tombs to await a resurrection to life, but were judged to go straight to the second eternal death, everlasting destruction but the dead are conscious of nothing Solomon wrote, certainly not pain.

It was this valley of Gehenna Jesus used as an illustration of the eternal non-existence of the second death. It was kept burning with fire and brimstone, basically it was Jerusalem's rubbish tip.

To sum up, the Lake of Fire symbolises eternal destruction and non existence, not eternal torture, this is why conditions such as Death will be hurled into the lake of fire, to show as Jesus said, that "death will be no more".



MCalavera
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28 Jan 2013, 6:06 pm

You choose to interpret it that way. As for me, I think I know very well what the context of the verses are suggesting, and for all outsiders, it should be pretty clear what eternity is supposed to indicate.



Bezeone
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28 Jan 2013, 6:12 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Nambo wrote:
The following is from Revelation 20 of The King James Version.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

You will notice in verse 10 that the place of eternal burning into which the sinners of verse 15 are cast, is the "Lake of Fire"

But did you notice that in verse 14, Hell itself is to be cast into the lake of fire?

So, Hell is not in fact the place of eternal torture we are lead to believe, there is plainly some misunderstanding going on amongst Christians to the extent that some translations actually say, "and Hell was cast into Hell".

Just a reminder that the worst sinner of all was Adam, and his punishment was, "dust you are, and to dust you will return".

I could go on, but long posts don't get read.


You see what you want to see.

It is clear that Revelation states that sinners will go to the lake of fire for eternity ... for ever and ever. Day and night.


Jonah 2:6
''I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. ''


It is also clear that Jonah states he was in the whale for ever.... Day and Night..what? He was in there for 3 days and 3 nights?



MCalavera
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28 Jan 2013, 6:26 pm

Yeah, I saw that, but the context is clear that it wasn't literally forever, and there is not much stress on the eternity bit, unlike in Revelation.

Also, keep in mind that translating words into English from various languages can be misleading and lead you to think that the same English word corresponds to only one word in Hebrew or Greek, which is not often the case.



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28 Jan 2013, 6:41 pm

"Hell is other people."
Jean-Paul Sartre


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Bezeone
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28 Jan 2013, 7:03 pm

Malachi 4:1,3
''For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.''

But here, the Bible claims that all wicked doers shall be ashes. Not dust,but ASHES!

Even here, God himself stated that he was to burn Satan to ashes!

Ezekiel 28:17-18, "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."


Oh, and this verse also stressed that Edom was going to be burning forever...

Isaiah 34:9,10
''And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.''

This also said Sodom and Gomorrha burned for eternity...

Jude 1:7 ''Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.''

How could they make so many mistranslations? Or...is it an old tactic used earlier?

Genesis 3:4, "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"



Kraichgauer
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28 Jan 2013, 7:21 pm

Hell is where Harvey Keitel as Satan shoves a pineapple up Hitler's ass (reference: Little Niki movie). :lol:

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MCalavera
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28 Jan 2013, 9:00 pm

Bezeone wrote:
Malachi 4:1,3
''For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.''

But here, the Bible claims that all wicked doers shall be ashes. Not dust,but ASHES!


So you're going to be trampling on the wicked in hell?

Anyway, that's the Old Testament. Beliefs evolved from the Old Testament to the New Testament concerning man's fate.

Quote:
Even here, God himself stated that he was to burn Satan to ashes!

Ezekiel 28:17-18, "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."


Even if this is referring to hell, that's still contradicted by Revelation.

But it's not referring to Satan burning in hell. Notice the phrase "upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee".

Quote:
Oh, and this verse also stressed that Edom was going to be burning forever...

Isaiah 34:9,10
''And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.''


So the prophecy was that Edom was going to be burning forever. Just because it hasn't happened, and most likely never will, doesn't mean that this passage must therefore support annihilation.

Quote:
This also said Sodom and Gomorrha burned for eternity...

Jude 1:7 ''Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.''


Finally, a verse from the New Testament. Either way, I don't see how this supports annihilation.

Anyway, if the New Testament really preached annihilation, it should've made it clear in some way. But on the contrary, all you get is the impression of an eternal hell. And going by parsimony, it's more reasonable to believe the doctrine of eternal suffering in hell is based on the New Testament better than the doctrine of annihilation, whose basis in the New Testament is very questionable.