Is the case for an Autistic country really that implausible?

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So do nerds and geeks.

ruveyn

I'm sorry my English is not good enough to fully understand what you are saying, but I think you're misunderstanding what the original poster said as my view. (And I also said that's unlikely.)

The op says: (page 1, 6th post)

True, that is why I usually refer to it as culture rather than religion.

http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt172395.html

There was a serious attempt in a thread, linked above, to derive information for who would be interested in such a project. It is evident that this would be close to impossible because everyone would likely have there own mandatory ideas of requirement for their mini-cultures, before it could be reasonably determined whether or not anyone is even interested.

The most successful event in gathering people together on the spectrum, in a real life event in nationwide attempts is Autscape and Autreat that draws at most a couple hundred of people out of entire nations.

Support groups usually cannot even develop in cities of less than 200K people.

It is evident there is not much "social interest" or basic opportunities in forming contacts offline among people on the spectrum.

It would be an advancement if more small real life support groups could be developed and maintained in cities, but even when they are, there is often just a speaker, topics of discussion for the speaker, a little input from limited numbers of individuals in the group and not many hanging around after the meetings to establish lasting friendships.

One can see a huge scope of diversity of the spectrum in the meetings that is not as apparent in text in online discussions. Even in groups specific to Aspergers.

An Autistic Country is an interesting thought but not likely to ever move past a reality further than a few pages in a thread on a website. The most serious attempt and longest thread I've seen anywhere is in the thread linked above

You might want to look into seasteading Thomas81,
Here
It hasn't taken off yet, and it'll be expensive if it does, but it's an interesting way to start a nation.

No sense repeating the arguments against an autistic nation, I'll just say I'm not on board.

Some will not be surprised to see my handle showing up again in this thread....

While I agree with most of the facts above, I would like to note that the offline issue seems to be more one of opportunities, not "social interest".

I should clarify that there is plenty of evidenced "social interest" in forming relationships among those participating in online autism communities offline if they had the basic opportunity.

However, in the real world, support groups that are well publicized do not gather many people on the spectrum unless the cities are very large.

The broader Autism phenotype is much more common with many more opportunities available without the same challenges in every day life that provide considerable roadblocks like sensory integration, motor skills, or visual spatial skills difficulties that make driving almost impossible, even among some people diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome.

In the one support group I attended I felt very privileged to be able to drive, as most people were having to rely on their parents or friends for transportation, as there is little public transportation available in my local area.

Online autism communities provide a sense of community, but the people interacting are often thousands of miles a part, without all the obstacles that present in the real world.

And, it is only a minority of people on the spectrum that are comfortable enough to communicate online in public forums, in written communication.

There are many extremely intelligent people that spend years lurking in the background reading the posts before ever actually feeling comfortable enough to interact with others, even at the level of monologue.

There is over 14,000 people that view this site daily, according to historical website statistics, but I would be surprised if more than 200 different people actually posted in the span of one day. And this by far is the largest online autism community that exists, where there is global access and global participation.

The largest autism facebook community I am aware of is Thautcast, but it is dominated by parents of children on the spectrum, which one might expect as the facebook environment is not a tolerable one for many people on the spectrum and often not a welcome one for people that are not into the social media cheer leading stuff.

Beyond this, interestingly, this site probably has more male participation than any online social networking site for people on the spectrum other than Reddit that is a male dominated site, by close to 80%.

The ratio here is close to 1 to 1. On facebook, Thautcast admin. provided statistics there last year that showed 80% female participation. There is overall close to 60% female participation in the general population on facebook, so that is not too surprising.

One can go to facebook on the annual autistic pride day invite, and look through people planning on attending and it is close to 80% there, as well, per female participation.

The online autism community experience does not appear to be reflective of the reality of the full spectrum, at least per statistics on demographics that exist.

If it were not for the internet the only large opportunities for people on the spectrum to get together, ironically, might be at Autism Speaks walks, where there are activities sponsored for children and parents, drawing large numbers of people together in communities. But still, only available, for the most part, in large cities.

I came across exactly one person identifying with Asperger's syndrome from the diagnostic period of 1994 through 2004, and I was associated with thousands of different people in my work environment from the general public during that period of time.

I had no idea any of this existed until someone pointed me to this website two and a half years ago. It is not on the radar in the real world, other than people that have the blue puzzle piece sticker on their cars, magazine advertisements, and among celebrities talking about it on TV.

The reason for that seems simple, as people on the spectrum don't often venture out of their comfort zone, to let anyone know this website and others exist. And this site is a prize when one weighs some of the other opportunities online for many people on the spectrum.

I personally don't feel comfortable in online autism environments that exclude people based strictly on civilly provided personal perspectives, that may differ from the herd. I suppose I like Liberty rather than conformity where I can find it. At least for me, that is part of my experience on the spectrum. I was surprised to find people in some online autism environments that were not distinguishable from anyone I met in real life.

The odd folks like me seem more likely to visit this site and Aspies for Freedom. It is interesting to view that site to me, as there seems to be more people participating from Europe on that website based in the UK, where there is a significantly different outlook on Autism, particularly in the UK. One can immediately see that in the national organization titled the National Autistic Society, as one with disability first language, that one only sees in the small ASAN organization in the US.

I think the issue with "comfort zones" is one of social exclusion. Many, quite possibly Most, Aspies are socially excluded at a young age, speaking from experence, I would think that even anoymous posting on WP would be difficult enough.

Do you have any views on the social exclusion/social anxiety issue? PM would be acceptable if you'd prefer to take this off the public forums.

AFF draws from an overlapping population with WP. I used to be a regular there myself. Without going to far against the understanding between the various sites, AFF draws from a population that, on average, has a more "aggressive" view of ASD issues. You are the first person that I know of to point out the cultural and instutional difference that might account for some of that.

I think it depends on the flavor of Autism one has. I address that in my blog link, in my signature in full detail per the difficulty in determining who is "neurotypcial".

My challenges for social inclusion in my middle school years, when puberty arises and children get more competitive and more likely to bully, was associated with appearance, grooming habits, and an inability to speak clearly and coherently that was the residue of a developmental language delay until age 4. Fortunately for me I was too socially naive to realize I was being bullied most of the time. I was never physically abused, even when I looked weak.

I was privileged to have an ability to excel in a laser focus at school in learning and taking tests and received a great deal of intrinsic reward from the learning experience from my interest in learning to positive teacher feedback.

I was able to determine from an early age that some people were more into the learning part of school and some were more into the social part of it. I figured one day I would learn to speak well because the teachers kept telling me I was smart. I got close to comfortable with speaking a few decades later.

I had a mother, a sister, a dog, and a piano that was the anchor of my emotional regulation. I was born hyperactive, and was able to deal with ADHD symptoms, sensory integration issues, and motor skills difficulties, with an obsession with exercise, that kept me balanced most of my life in those areas of difficulty.

My approach to life was usually a problem solving one. When I was bullied for my appearance and finally determined why, my solution was to do what I could do to change that, and took the bullying more as advice rather than torment.

I was more painfully aware of the difficulties of others that did not seem happy to me, which was not an issue I had a significant problem with.

Take out any of the elements of academic success, supportive parent, sister, dog, piano or exercise and my view of the world would likely not have been nearly as positive. My family was poor on my mother's side after my father left at an early age, but that played little to no role in my outlook on life as material things did not provide me much happiness, other than matchbox cars, a train set, one stuffed polar bear, and the plastic dinosaurs that the gas stations gave away in those days. Later on it was an old Maverick car that I enjoyed what they call "pimping up" one's ride today. My mother worked too hard to have much time for advice in life. I learned most of how I thought the world operated from TV.

The transition from high school to college in loss of people I knew who grew to accept me over decades and a structure I could depend on put me in a place with no compass, but I eventually I found it again after graduating from college and finding work in a military Bowling Center where my real social lessons in life started with trial and error efforts. It was not if I wanted to learn the social skills, it was I had to adapt in order to survive. Academics were lost for a decade until home computers came alone.

I am a 100% believer in neuroplasticity, because the adversity of social adaptation made me in to a people person instead of a book worm. It changed back in the other direction when home computers and exciting video games came alone and my focus once again became mechanical cognition instead of social cognition.

The factors that result in social inclusion or exclusion are complex, including a synergy of inherent, environmental, and self determined factor's through one's unique assessment and expectation of life, resulting in a unique world view.

I saw so no limits in life, because no one told me I had any limits in life. The negative aspect was critical feed back. For me adversity was one of my best friends. As long as I could adapt to it.

I think that is the normal way of life for any animal but human culture provides the illusion that life was meant to be anything other than a constant struggle for adaptation and survival, in an intrinsic reality of the nature of reward and punishment, resulting from action and consequences.

Culture provides not only the illusion that life is not meant to be the struggle it is, it also provides an expectation of attainment of perfection per vanity and material success.

The bottom line is life is more difficult to figure out than it ever has been before. Some people will adapt and find a social role, inclusion, and a somewhat comfortable level of homeostasis and some will not. Who who will and who will not, is hard to predict at one point of a person's life. Too many factors are at play.

My Autism is based on a hyperlexic language development delay, sensory integration problems, ADHD, unusual androgynous features as a child through about age 15, with the resulting social exclusion that can be associated with that difference.

Take out the hyperlexic language development delay, and I doubt I would have had the substantial difficulties I had with reciprocal social communication that is now considered the core element of autism that lasts the course of a lifetime. It is also the biggest cause in my estimation for social exclusion because it is an inherent issue in nature, and not one that can be easily adapted to regardless if one does not see their limitation.

Also in my opinion technology exists today that allows one to be able to avoid much of the face to face social interaction, that I and others when I was younger had to adapt to or basically perish. It is a two edge sword. I think, negative for those that might be able to adapt without the technology to relative comfort in face to face interaction and positive for those impacted greater in inherent social communication that are able to adapt because of the alternate methods of communication provided by modern technology.

I am glad there was no diagnosis for me as a child and glad that TV was the extent of electronic communication at that time, or I could have easily avoided social communication through the course of much of my childhood, along with social imagination in hours of boredom where one learns to get familiar with one's mind on a one on one basis.

Leaving work with chronic immune system problems and a loss of ability to come out of a dark room because of vision issues for about a year, provided me the opportunity or what was extreme adversity to tame a mind that had been basically taken over by cultural expectation, that was probably 70% influenced by spending my life vicariously in a receptive state of mind almost like a trance, somewhere in an electronic media device, rather than an interactive one

That is just an account of my perspective of social exclusion vs. social inclusion. One cannot separate the different era of time I grew up in, the environment I was exposed to, or the inherent unique factors associated with Autism I lived with to extrapolate that out into the unique experience of anyone else on the spectrum in what has resulted in their current outlook on life.

The diversity of the human condition is fascinating to me, and whenever I see anyone make a generalization about any human being or condition specific to others I can only speculate that one has not had much time to observe the diversity of the human experience from a distance and reflect on it, in the fast paced environment of modern culture.

Or even had the opportunity to quietly reflect on the environment in one's own mind. But, that is now an aspect of adaptation and survival, that may limit the opportunity for people to visit that place that our ancestors spent most of their life in.

I believe all of these factors are associated with how one may or may not experience Autism per the perspective of social inclusion or exclusion. And so many more factors that I may be completely unaware of in my limited view of life.

I have no idea how anyone has time to reflect on anything but hi or bye, that has1000 friends on facebook. Connected per empirical measure but disconnected per subjective measure, in some cases, I think.

But my perspective of life from a fairly rare condition of hyperlexia, is likely very different than most others on this issue, because of unique adaptations I made in life for survival. I think that verbal language difficulties likely cause difficulties in navigating the world per one's thoughts in one's mind. Whereas the folks with non-verbal learning difficulties may have more difficulty navigating the world through visual-spatial skills. This among many other factors, results, I think, in many different flavors of autism, and many substantially different outlooks on life, including perception of social inclusion or exclusion.

What I see as most disconcerting on a personal level, that is likely influenced by my unique history of life, is an overall hatred in some online avenues expressed for Parents, "neurotypicals", and charitable organizations seeking research to better understand and remediate symptoms of health and genetic problems that are associated with some subgroups on the spectrum like fragile X syndrome and and regressive autism that provide unique challenges in day to day survival.

My theory is that I am privileged in my early life experiences, as I describe above, in support and adaptation, whereas some may not have experienced that same level of privilege, likely resulting in a much different outlook in many areas of life.

It is likely I think that some gravitate to certain online autism communities as they can feel more comfortable in sharing their discomforts in life that some others may not share. I see that as a good thing, that those avenues of comfort are available whether or not I agree with the personal perspectives presented or not.

The same for parents of children on the spectrum looking for a similar type of support in sharing discomforts in life per the unique challenges that may exist for them.

I do wonder if (what appear to be) higher DX rates in the younger generations will lead to more aggergate interest in the subject.

I believe it will, what form that interest takes....I'm not sure.

So here we are, several hundred posters with 14,000 views a day, forming an open social leadership by being active.

When I started we were supposed to be one in a hundred and fifty, but now that has been increased to one in sixty six, or in the broader criteria, one in ten, or three in ten.

Our movement is taking over the world!

Better yet, girls who were to be one in five have been accepted by Psychobabblists as being equal but different.

The numbers are there.

The problem I see is a general mild dissatisfaction with life, the behavior of some, and being told we have missed something they consider important.

The problem to me is defining the problem. Humans are annoying, I do not agree with them. Is the usual human condition.

The study of the Autistic Mind has produced a mirror study of the Psychobabble Mind. No only are they wrong most of the time, they have no problem forgetting what they held to be truth yesterday.

Autism is Genetic, in that all autistics have genetics.

Autism is inhereted, in that all autistics have parents.

The children in one family tend to range in personality to the point they all think they must have been adopted.

Autistics question things, seek answers, read books, which is really strange minority behavior.

On the wheel of personality types, WP seems to group in one quadrant.

If it were not for the connection to autism, the disabling version, the rest would be quirky, odd, different, but nothing of note.

Picking one trait that defines WP, I would say persistance.

Great works are performed not by strength, but by persistance. A recent fortune cookie.

Another factor is a resistance to change. Celler geek at twelve, celler geek at thirty.

What we lack, our ideal culture location. For some it is playing ball at State, for others painting on the left bank in Paris, or leaving town till those questions die down.

The autistic lack motivation, although they do have ambition, drive, and even lacking real world monkey sense, do have ample book learning, specialized skills, and are defined as living below their potential as seen from education, IQ, and knowledge of Star Wars Trivia.

The autistic have no problem fitting in, they don't, never did, never will.

So it is hard to sell them on the concept that such a place could exist.

Resistance to change comes up, and fitting in is an alien concept.

What we need to sell this idea, is a culture ideal, a place that can overcome resistance to change, and I am a ruralist who supports a village from the middle ages, with WiFi.

Quite and trees have been known to cure all sorts of things, and planned social stagnation is what restrictive zoning is about.

It would have to be like Second Life, something that can be viewed on the web until it does become part of your reality, then you could move there.

The next problem is making it self supporting.

There are enough retired and funded disabled that could form a base. Problem is they never agree where.

My own view of economics is get somewhere with a garden, some chickens, and good water, because it all may just stop.

This is not running away from problems, it is the old building local structure that can withstand problems. Food, Water, Shelter, is good basic security.

Forming an economy when most forms of small economy are failing, is not easy. Food from dirt still works.

Now my cultural ambition is surviving for the rest of my life. I would prefer somewhere that the County is the only government, and land taxes are low.

It will take some proving to show if there is any differance between autistics, and people picked at random.

Why not an adhd country? Or an obese country? Or a tourettes country? Or an alchoholics annon. country?

Or a anorexic country? Or what have you?

Why would autistics need a nation anymore than any other group? And why would it work any better?

Interesting, as I think you just may have found the solution in Amish Counties, where it has proven out as a substantially difficult task to show a difference between autistics and people picked at random.

As usual, I enjoy the twists and turns of the paths of your insight.

Forgive me for the reciprocal social-communication. It feels a little foreign to me, too.

I suppose all of those groups could demand acceptance instead. But, that would not work either. Pets are pretty compliant, though.

However, it may not be too late to give up, as I think Autism Acceptance Month just started a few hours ago to do battle with World Autism Awareness Month. Where all the A's are in April.

Interesting too, as I don't think there are any obese, tourettes, anorexic, disease of addiction (which is also genetic in association), etc. months of acceptance. It's an ongoing conflict that has existed since the beginning of primates, as far as I know.

Aghogday, are you indicating that autistic traits are accepted in "Amish Counties"*?

* There really is'nt such a thing as a legal or practical matter.

Analogies and patterns swim in my head and at times escape in words similar to how Inventor seems to experience Autism. I do not know that for sure, but I intuitively assess it.

I had just been involved in another discussion in another area of the internet about the Amish and the 1 in 271 prevalence found there in a door to door screen, as opposed to a 1 in 50 prevalence in the rest of the US, from a phone survey of parents for children actually diagnosed.

Autism is diagnosed as not only symptoms characteristic of the condition, but also as one that impairs one in a major area of life functioning.

Acceptance is an ongoing issue in daily life, that changes by the moment depending on who one is dealing with. One cannot demand acceptance from one that chooses not to provide it. Except when there are carrots and sticks that others yield to. People often act like they accept their supervisors or other authority figures, but it does not mean they feel that way inside.

I do suspect that people on the spectrum are more likely accepted by others, in Amish Counties and contribute greatly to society as there is often enough to do to keep everyone busy for basic survival. Along with enough social roles to fill in a close knit society.

People in Amish Counties often do not do well in the larger world when they leave there to join the rest of the world.

It is more likely the larger world, which make characteristics on a much broader autism phenotype, observed in every country and small culture in the world, a diagnosis in some cultures and a continued broader autism phenotype for others.

It is also potentially part of the reason that some folks who are getting diagnosed at 40 now, would likely be getting diagnosed at 20 now if born 20 years later, in part, because the social demands of this fast paced chaotic culture, now exceed capacity for fuller social adaptation.

People don't usually get a diagnosis, unless they are having substantial problems adapting. They often remain on that broader autism phenotype.

The DSM5 now defines Autism as symptoms of a broader autism phenotype that occur in childhood but may not fully manifest of symptoms of an actual diagnosed condition until social demands exceed social adaptation.

Basically, every child, later diagnosed with Autism, starts off on a broader autism phenotype first. There can be many associated factors that lead to the actual diagnosis, including superficial issues such as how the condition may be defined, how it is subjectively assessed, and awareness and accessibility of heath care leading to a diagnosing professional.

I do not think it is practical to use the term Autism for online communities. I like the phrase "neurodiversity communities" as a place where every person who feels neurodiverse can feel free to interact with others with an almost unlimited number of neurological differences.

That is already the effective reality anyway, as many people have not made it to the point, where they feel the need or have access to healthcare to move from broader autism phenotype to actual diagnosis. That is as long as everyone is welcome, as is the case most often here, where people do not find themselves in the same larger world trap of unspoken political/social ideologies they are not accepted for unless they comply and conform.

I think in Amish counties, overall, it is an issue of effective opportunity for and resulting social adaptation which is often associated with acceptance from others.

I think overall that is what all social animals look for in life. I do not generally see people on the spectrum as anti-social animals.

I think it is possible to legislate greater opportunities for social adaptation through employment and laws like the ADA. However, acceptance more often depends on social adaptation, which does not necessarily mean being a social butterfly, as much as finding an environmental niche in a role to play as some type of contributing player.

People are having a harder time adapting, so overall society is not working as it should, at least for those who are having trouble adapting.

Things are getting better for those most severely impacted by co-morbid medical conditions, but that is only a piece of the overall adaptation pie that exists from birth to death.

The other pieces do seem to be harder to find for some now than they used to be.

The result of that is the expansion of people identifying with Autism as a source of online acceptance. That is not effectively inclusive enough for everyone looking for that on a much broader autism phenotype or what others refer to as neurodiversity.

It is part of the problem that exists between some parents of children on the spectrum and some people identifying on the spectrum. They are most often on the same team of a broader autism phenotype,. and often cannot clearly see that commonality. And they are also most often looking for the same thing for themselves, support and acceptance.

That will probably eventually change for the better in someways, online, as the basic opportunity for social adaptation and acceptance in the "real world" does not appear to be moving in a positive direction. The Sequester is near evidence of that future. So is increasing avenues of online participation among those identifying with Autism as not just a diagnosis, but a way of life.