How to Lose Friends and Alienate People

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Actually, Libertarians strongly oppose a great deal of the Republican core platform, and there's quite a bit of bad blood between libertarians and objectivists. Check around.

Libertarians are non-interventionist, for one, in direct opposition to the republican party's idea that we need a powerful military to exercise our influence worldwide. And it's not just pot, it's religion, homosexuality, any and all personal liberties. Libertarians are also anti-corporate, often voicing concern over republicans and democrats both who give preferential status to particular corporation and meddle in the market.

The Republicans are statists. The Libertarians are minarchists. They want just enough government to keep domestic order in the society.

Government is a necessary evil. So let us have as little of it as possible consistent with an orderly society.

ruveyn

Being that as it may, from what I've observed, Libertarians tend to side with Republicans in real life. On top of that, there is a Libertarian movement withing the Republican party - how long has it been since there have been any liberal Republicans?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I don't think that you're correct about the extremists being the majority of libertarians, as an actual libertarian engaged with the movement and all. Certainly it's the extremists who draw the most attention, but that's an unfortunate problem of the way the media works rather than an indication of what the average libertarian is like.

I would also argue that in a lot of cases, it's not so much not caring as having made a difficult choice, the classic hypothetical "push one person in front of the train in order to save ten people" pretty much sums it up. I know full well that eliminating some of the bureaucracies and agencies that I want to see gone will dislocate hundreds of thousands of people who did no wrong in making those agencies their careers, but long term I believe that the changes are necessary and will benefit many more people than are harmed. It's just another form of creative destruction, the automobile did in the buggywhip maker and the farrier, but created massive new industries that elevated many more people on balance than it harmed. Reforming social security or medicare or any of the big entitlement programs would hurt short term, but it's only because we think that it would hurt worse long term that we're committed to doing those things.

Liberty and freedom are important to us, but we think they're beneficial for everyone, not just the privileged few.

In that case, you're woefully misinformed about libertarians.

Well, subtract January 20, 1961, from the current date...

Some libertarians have chosen to try and reform the Republican party from within rather than trying to form their own independent party. Why the Republican party and not the Democratic is a subject of some debate, with the usually accepted reason being that it was seen as easier to teach someone who's ostensibly already for small government to respect civil liberties than it to teach someone who's unabashedly big government to see the dangers of that path.

Well, for one, I tend to vote for a lot of positions considered "liberal", and I'm a registered Republican.

It depends on what you consider "liberal". I favor a strict separation of state and religion, I think gays should be permitted to marry, hell, any consenting adults should be allowed to shack up without getting any preferential tax breaks. I think we need to do business instead of making war our business. I also favor just taxation, when it goes to a just purpose. Education, health care, infrastructure. I favor cutting back on the nation-building overseas and think we need to do some nation-building back here. I like the libertarian take. I'm just not totally convinced that government ain't got it's roots so deeply entrenched that we can get back to a more libertarian system without bloodshed.

There's quite a lot who think like me. I generally vote for democrats, because right now, they tax more, but they don't allow the social conservative to run roughshod over civil liberties. There's a lot of republicans who believe in certain "liberal" positions. They just don't get heard. And when they do speak up, they get flak from harder core republicans and democrats alike who consider them weak tea.

Windows and OS X dominate the desktop OS almost completely, and Linux counts for a small fraction. Nevertheless, competition from Linux has put pressure on Microsoft to improve Windows. When Firefox came out, it wasn't a huge fraction of the market, but it got Microsoft to wake up and start putting actual effort into IE, which it hadn't been doing for awhile.

Windows and IE both still suck, but they suck a lot less than they otherwise would have because of competition. They wouldn't have had that kind of competition if people said, "well, the alternatives are better, but they aren't going to be more popular than the currently popular crap, so I'm not going to bother."

A third party doesn't have to displace or destroy either the Republicans or the Democrats to have an effect.

Well, the reason we can find common ground in terms of the goal (if not the method) is mainly because you're a more moderate libertarian than most. From what I commonly encounter (at least on the internet) the majority of libertarians don't have a common goal. If they did they would stick to method arguments instead of changing the subject away from pragmatics and complaining that "I have the arrogance to want to vote for people who help the poor with other people's money". That is a moral judgement against me so I'm going to hit back with my own moral judgement against them.


Usually I can tell pretty quick when an argument isn't going to go anywhere and isn't worth my time. I don't have any desire to argue in depth with Ayn Rand types who seem to take pleasure in their perceived elitism and trot out just world fallacy arguments because they know they will upset people. The problem is arguing with more thoughtful libertarians one of these types of trolls is bound to show up and stir up a whole slew of s**t. I'm not taking about this forum but the internet in general.

Okay, I'll concede I was being a bit of an ass. Actually, there is a member of my church who is a small businessman and Libertarian who I've become friends with. In all honesty, I credit his tempering of his politics and business practices with Christian principles that makes him very palatable to a liberal like me. But how many Libertarians - especially in elected and leadership positions, fit my friend's mold?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

I should have actually said how many Republicans in elected or leadership positions can be described as liberal Republicans. There in fact had been, at one time.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

True enough. As far as leadership, I'd say Jon Huntsman was a good example. I think he quit after the whipping he got in the primaries, but still, he was recent, and fairly liberal. The problem is with the division in the two parties, and basic psychology. The democratic party brands themselves as liberal, and the republican brands themselves conservative. What this means, given peoples' habit of surrounding themselves with like minded individuals, is that liberals tend to gravitate towards the democrats and vice versa for conservatives. That's one reason why I and a bunch of other people I know switched to republican. The party needs moderates. By doubling down for your party, you're actually driving your ideals from the other party, and increasing the divide.

There's also the fact that you democrats have been driving people away like crazy. Between Obamacare (Whatever the merits, it's basically a big shining Chinese in the liberal armor), sin taxes, and Obama's liberal (no pun intended) use of executive orders, you're giving people the impression that the Democrats really are everything that the conservatives are saying. That drives swings to the republicans, and the leadership will double down on their platform given their perceived success. They'll stick with it for a decade or so, and then you'll see a rise of saner republicans.

The fact is, blanket terms like liberal don't quit cut it in a nuanced political system. Someone who's liberal on rights might be conservative on other issues, and vice versa.

Possibly so. So far, though, the Democrats are riding high still. If they start losing elections due to a disconnect with the collective psyche of the American public, then it'll be the Democrats turn to do some soul searching.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer