The Israel Empire plan.

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Please remove Sauron and replace with actual people and reconsider what you're saying.

Because a small nation full of people who mostly want to tell each other who they ought to marry and what they ought to eat and what doctor they should see and what to study in school -- they're very interested in maintaining a landmass-sized prison camp, it's their idea of fun. Not a horrible waste of life or time or money or anything else.

Want to try again? Consider, for instance, why Israel might have an interest in keeping Hamas in Gaza physically separated from the PLO in the West Bank. Consider at the same time that Israel has not, for instance, simply turned around and used the degree of force it could against people who say, straight out, that their aim is to destroy Israel. And ask yourself why.

Israel's military actions have turned Gaza into a breeding ground for extremism. How does diminishing the fishing zone to sewage contaminated waters maintain peace? Moreover how does the destruction of infrastructure (sewage works) maintain peace? Israeli officials have also levelled their fair share of hate filled bluster.

"When we have settled the land, all the
Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged
roaches in a bottle."
? Rafael Eitan (1929-2004) served as Chief of Staff of the IDF, and later as Knesset member and government minister. Sources


October 8, 2004:
"The significance of the [Gaza Strip disengagement] plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weisglass told Haaretz newspaper, adding the US had given its backing. ? "It
supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not
be a political process with the Palestinians ? When you freeze [the
peace] process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state,
and you prevent a discussion on the [Palestinian] refugees, the borders
and Jerusalem.
? Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with
all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. ?
And all this with authority and permission. All with a [US]
presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress."

? Dov Weisglass, then adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Source

There are three positions in the fray

Palestinians/Israeli's Blameless
Both carry responsibility

The only scholarly consensus that can be reached is that Israel and Palestine have committed serious war crimes throughout the war and those responsible need to be brought to justice. This idea that Israel has its back against the wall in a sea of hostile arabs is just preposterous.Israel has almost razed Palestine to the ground has no regard for civilian life and has ensured that Gaza is a crucible and breeding ground for extremism by seperating Gazans from the West Bank and thus any other form of government

You're feeding yourself paranoia. Had Israel really intended to "cleanse" Palestinians from the land, there wouldn't be any Palestinians there. They'd have been gone long ago. What you see is what happen when you insist on fighting in and from cities. Sarajevo suffered the same fate and so have many others. It really does not help to store your weapons under hospitals and schools. Unless of course your aim is to draw fire to hospitals and schools and martyr your people for a PR moment.

The only Arab state to accept the existence of Israel as a Jewish state is Egypt. The guy who signed that treaty was assassinated by another Egyptian. Yes, in fact the Arab nations around are hostile to the country's existence and will say so outright.

As hideous and bloody as this has been, I know of no other country that behaves with this kind of forbearance under steady attack from sworn enemies. The last time the US was attacked -- not by thousands of rockets, but by four hijacked airplanes that hit a total of three buildings -- we engaged in a multi-front, multi-decade war, toppled a government, and are still laying waste today. The time before that we sent half the country to war and ended it with an atomic bomb. Can you think of another country that's sat there and taken it, repeatedly, from next door like this? Because I can't.

Paranoia? These are the words of high ranking officials in the Israeli government responsible for helping to shape and implement policy. Iraq is a fitting parallel to draw because Israel's response outstrips the us response in casual civilian disregard:

The wall dividing gaza ant the WB violates international law and the rerouting of the wall still is in contravention of the law. Fishing rights have been stolen and agricultural rights curtailed many of the fishermen and farmers have been left dispossessed.

Civilian death rate is 75% and most of the infrastructure is now unusuable. The palestinians' welfare is legally Israel's responsibility. How does depriving them of basic due process detaining them illegally cutting them off from land that is legally theirs and destroying their means of providing clean water waste removal power demonstrate this?

Israel are behaving EXACTLY like America which is meet since America is their biggest supporter.

Have some empathy for the people of Palestine. Forget the politicking and look at the reality of the humanitarian crisis (UN acknowledged) unfolding before your eyes. How can you see the vast disparity between Palestinian casualties and Israeli casualties and claim that Israel are showing restraint under tremendous pressure. Israel knows very well that the solution to Hamas is to lift the blockade and restore basic rights to the Palestinians. Failure to do so only radicalises each successive generation

Maybe the disparity has more to do with Palestinian ineptitude (or Israeli ingenuity, if you rather prefer focusing on positive attributes) than lack of restraint?


I don't think I could possibly care less.

I have enormous sympathy for the people of Palestine, which is why I've been advocating all along that they be given refugee status and allowed to camp elsewhere while the maniacs who live amongst them prosecute a war and are defeated. We do this for people all over the world, I see no reason why we can't do it for Palestinians too. They're powerless against the terrorists who run their society. And this is not a novelty: in other places, some insane faction insists on making war and dragging everyone else into it; eventually UNHCR steps in and helps noncombatants get out and wait on the sidelines; the insane faction's destroyed or destroys itself, the war ends, and people can go back home. A peaceable Palestinian population living next to Israel is in everyone's best interest. But it can't happen without the UN's help and other nations' willingness to accept refugees, partly because Hamas will not let them go unless they're protected on the way out.

And no, Israel is not behaving like America. If it had been, there wouldn't be any Palestinians left to speak of, and that would've been the case a very long time ago.

The Palestinians elected Hamas. They fully deserve the consequences.

When ruthless people with guns tell you who to vote for, you do as they say.

I'm not aware of anyone being forced at gunpoint to vote for Hamas.

I'd be deeply surprised if people don't get "encouragement".

And indeed that appears to be the case, according to international observers. The 2012 elections were a shambles, with Hamas boycotting and "encouraging" people to stay away from the polls. I would guess it's expensive to resist that encouragement.

Hamas were elected fair and square but when the fatah refused to step down with dignity bloody war ensued and Hamas started governing as sole power. Palestine voted 80% in favour because the fatah party was corrupt and lacked political direction while Hamas offered security to a people who had had their land seized and who felt oppressed

Israeli land seizures and attacks and the perception that the fatah were merely collaborators led to that election. Desperate people desperate voting. Even if the argument that a people are responsible for the actions of their elected government were actually sound how are the children below voting age those who didnt vote and the 20% who voted against responsible?

Voting for terrorists. Sacrificing their children. I really don't care anymore.

(shrug) Call it what you want; the fact is Palestine's got a jihadist mafia intimidating people into compliance. It's not possible to deal with peaceable Palestinians if the rocket boys refuse to quit and intimidate those inclined to make a peace.

I had dinner a couple nights ago with a friend who has family in Belfast; both he and I were there and in London in the 80s, when the IRA was busy bombing. I haven't been back since, but he has, and he went with a family friend around our age driving all over town in a manner that would've been impossible 30 years ago. He said there's a monument the friend took him to see: on one side it's the name of IRA martyrs, combatants; on the other it's a list of poor bastards who had nothing to do with the fighting, but got killed anyway.

It's an important thing to recognize: most people don't want to fight. Most people have the sense not to be revolutionaries. The Irish peace was built on the IRA's recognition that continuing to fight would continue to be dreadfully expensive and for almost nothing. The same will have to happen before there can be a peace in Gaza: Hamas will have to be brought to heel by one side or the other. I hope very much that it's the Palestinian side, but I don't see how.

Tarantella,

While hamas rockets must stop, the conflict is way older than Hamas - The focus on Hamas as the reason for Israel's self-described acts is ridiculous, This position pretends we are addressing a 27-year conflict -- not a 65-year conflict. Israel's actions against Palestine, specifically Gaza, stem back far before Hamas even existed. Hamas's actions and Israel's repeated claim that Hamas is the root cause of all this fighting proves only one thing -- force cannot create peace, at least not lasting peace. Any conversation that ignores pre-1987 is incomplete, insincere, and will ultimately prove ineffective at the negotiation table.

Hamas and Hezbollah are a symptom (and also a symptom of Islamism, another cancer not related to Israel) of this conflict, but not the root cause.

But I have a feeling that trying to convince you is a waste of time, I can smell a biased pro-Israel from a mile.