Debunking the 'self made man' myth

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Raptor
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28 Oct 2014, 8:32 pm

androbot01 wrote:

Raptor wrote:

And I tend to notice the ones that want government in their lives and everyone elses' are on the dole with no serious plans on being off of it.

I'm on the dole, I want government interference (I'm dependent on it,) but I do have serious plans of becoming self sustaining.

In a world of no interference I would be long gone. So I owe my life to government support. I do feel guilty taking a support cheque each month, but right now just keeping my sanity is a battle for me.

Did anyone say there should be no govemment?
To quote George Washington:
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

What I take from that is that govementment is a necessary evil but none the less still inherently evil and something that should be kept to a minimum.
I've never said anything to the effect that we should abolish the social safety net, but I have and will speak out against needlessly using it as a hammock.

Quote:

I think there is confusion as to "work." Not everyone who works hard is successful and not all work is financially rewarding. I can and do work hard, but not at anything that earns me money ... yet.

Already addressed by me and others in this thread. I do not always work hard or smart but I fault only myself and hold no bitterness toward those who apply themselves more effectively.

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Kraichgauer
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28 Oct 2014, 8:44 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Raptor wrote:

And I tend to notice the ones that want government in their lives and everyone elses' are on the dole with no serious plans on being off of it.

I wouldn't go that far, but I would say they're often naive about the kind of people who go into government, especially concerning their motivations, interests, and competence.

I would go that far in this case.
It was in response to you-know-who, an individual who has indicated that he is on the D-O-L-E and also worships Obama.

Geez Raptor, I thought you were a gutsy guy, but apparently I'm some sort of Lovecraftian deity that must not be named!

And besides telling you my politics, and the fact that I don't have a pot to piss in, I don't recall ever telling you how my family and I make a living, nor am I required to. What is this class hatred you have for poor people? It's very unbecoming.
And before you start going off about achievement walking hand in hand with wealth, I'll remind you how OUR LORD AND SAVIOR chose a life of poverty, as did every religious icon before and since. In the arts, Edgar Allen Poe and H.P. Lovecraft died in poverty. Charles Bukowski was at his best as a poet and writer while a skid row drunk, then a postal worker (a job he despised, preferring to sleep all day and drink all night) and only became mediocre after he achieved success.

1. Was anyone's name mentioned? (circle one) Y N
2. Had someone's name been named, that would have been trolling or a personal attack and against the terms of use. (True or False) _____
3. Has Raptor ever actually bashed the poor just for being poor? (circle one) Y N

Bonus question: Do you have a persecution complex when it comes to dealing with any non-liberal? (circle one) Y N

If you're going to attack someone - me or not - at least have the courage to name them.
And no, you bash the poor and anyone else for being dependent on someone else, as if it's a capital crime.
And as far as your previous post is concerned - even if there is bureaucratic waste, I'd much rather have those programs than be without them, as the lives and safety of all of us depend on them. Believe it or not, even yours.

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Raptor
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28 Oct 2014, 8:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

If you're going to attack someone - me or not - at least have the courage to name them.

Attack??

Butthurt doesnt count as being attacked.

Quote:

And no, you bash the poor and anyone else for being dependent on someone else, as if it's a capital crime.

Show me.
Go back and find it, then.

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Kraichgauer
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28 Oct 2014, 8:57 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

If you're going to attack someone - me or not - at least have the courage to name them.

Attack??

Butthurt doesnt count as being attacked.

Quote:

And no, you bash the poor and anyone else for being dependent on someone else, as if it's a capital crime.

Show me.
Go back and find it, then.

I need only refer back to your denigrating anyone on "the dole."
And yes, your so called butthurt is the same as having an attack inflicted on you.

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androbot01
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28 Oct 2014, 9:58 pm

Raptor wrote:

Already addressed by me and others in this thread. I do not always work hard or smart but I fault only myself and hold no bitterness toward those who apply themselves more effectively.

Me neither.

Sweetleaf
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28 Oct 2014, 10:22 pm

Raptor wrote:

The long and short of it is that the rich ARE to some extent above the law for any or all of the reasons listed:

? They have connections
It?s common for the wealthy to have friends in high places. They do favor$ for tho$e friend$ and tho$e friend$ in turn do favorS for them. It?s like everyone else with their friends and
acquaintances but on a much larger $cale. They a;so have dirt on some people as a result of their lofty status.

? They employ people
They own or manage businesses, employ a lot of people, and are considered pillars of the community.

? They have the best attorneys on retainer
Want to win in court or better yet avoid trial? Have better legal coun$el than your opponent, be it civil or criminal.

Do I like that arrangement? Nope, but on the other hand I don't want to change the system they abuse because the only way to make the law work the way we think we want it to work would screw over a lot more than just the rich.
I don?t believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Yeah and it's BS, therein lies the problem rich douche-bags with too much power who are above the law and essentially run the government who is supposed to serve the citizens as a whole but instead just feed corporate and wealthy interests....I say screw this system and the way it works.

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Raptor
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28 Oct 2014, 10:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

I need only refer back to your denigrating anyone on "the dole."

It gets back to using the social safety net as a hammock; you're either doing it or your not.

Quote:

And yes, your so called butthurt is the same as having an attack inflicted on you.

Only if the dog bites you in the ass.

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Raptor
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28 Oct 2014, 10:41 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

It is what it is.
Do you have a better system in mind? Preferably one without tens of millions of deaths to it's credit like communism......

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Dox47
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28 Oct 2014, 10:42 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

If there is a powerful state, people will abuse it, that's just how power works. Politicians have more interest in getting reelected than they do in governing effectively, government workers have more incentives to move up in the system and build little empires than to be helpful or efficient, any law designed to punish the powerful with be used against the powerless (see: asset forfeiture), if there is more money to be made by lobbying politicians to suppress competitors and dole out subsidies than by actually providing services and products, that is what corporations will do, etc. The only coherent solution is a small state heavily bound by laws with teeth, bitter a pill as that is for some people to swallow, as the corrupting effects of power are so strong that limiting it is the only real option.

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LoveNotHate
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28 Oct 2014, 10:45 pm

Another thread that leads to left-wing "selflessness" ...

1. Rich have money.
2. I want their money.
3. However, don't you dare take my 'piece of pie' (credited: raptor)
4. And don't you dare share with the very poor people in the world.

Kraichgauer
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28 Oct 2014, 11:11 pm

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I need only refer back to your denigrating anyone on "the dole."

It gets back to using the social safety net as a hammock; you're either doing it or your not.

Quote:

And yes, your so called butthurt is the same as having an attack inflicted on you.

Only if the dog bites you in the ass.

And according to conservatives, anyone depending on public assistance is in a hammock.

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seaturtleisland
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28 Oct 2014, 11:14 pm

Raptor wrote:

seaturtleisland wrote:

Quote:

So would you say being smart is necessary to work smart?

[b]Smart as in intelligent, yes.

Quote:

Also what is true success?

Success where someone's efforts actually produce a desirable result.

The italicized text demonstrates an injustice and a problem with the way the world runs. That's probably where the thing you call "liberal envy" comes from. It's not that he has a yacht and I don't so that's not fair. It's not like a child complaining because another child was given a bigger toy. It's that the law only applies to poor people. The rich are technically bound by the law just like everyone else but in actual practice they are above it.

So about the intelligence thing. Would you say people have control over how intelligent they are?

Sweetleaf
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28 Oct 2014, 11:24 pm

Raptor wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Raptor wrote:

It is what it is.
Do you have a better system in mind? Preferably one without tens of millions of deaths to it's credit like communism......

Things can change and communism in its true form would be ideal....that hasn't existed yet though.

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Sweetleaf
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28 Oct 2014, 11:27 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Sweetleaf wrote:

Well no sh*t, why do you think I ahve a problem with the current system, though I disagree that your 'only' coherent solution is really the only solution. If there was no power to be had there would be no need to limit it, but the trouble is we have a system that encourages people to strive for being the most powerful.

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androbot01
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28 Oct 2014, 11:29 pm

Raptor wrote:

It gets back to using the social safety net as a hammock; you're either doing it or your not.

Lukecash12
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28 Oct 2014, 11:31 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I need only refer back to your denigrating anyone on "the dole."

It gets back to using the social safety net as a hammock; you're either doing it or your not.

Quote:

And yes, your so called butthurt is the same as having an attack inflicted on you.

Only if the dog bites you in the ass.

And according to conservatives, anyone depending on public assistance is in a hammock.

Straw man. He's already said that not everyone depending on public assistance is using it like a hammock. I swear we could really get somewhere one of these times if not for the ever persistent straw men.

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