Is Paganism good or evil?

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I think that was one of the most confusing things about growing up Catholic - ie. we were saying Hail Mary's all the time but I could never figure out just what it was they were doing with her or what her role was.

At least in the last five years I got a lot of my answers sorted out on that. She's known to have 10,000 names and most post-Templar traditions like to refer to her as Isis (which seems to take a keynote from Apuleius' Metamorphoses).

I am unable to post my detailed response to Barchan on this thread as the captcha keeps screwing me over. But I will keep trying as her observations / claims warrant a strong rebuttal and will not go unchallenged.

Barchan,

If you are going to make broad statements about Sanatana Dharma (and it is obvious that you know next-to-nothing about it), then you had better be prepared to be challenged on it and to back up your claims.

The One Universality or the Supreme Purusha recognized in Sanatana Dharma, is the Formless, Nameless, Infinite One who embraces all and encompasses all, as opposed to your Allah who rejects any who is not himself (or herself). In addition, this Purusha is so incomprehensible that to humanize it as the "God" who wants you to do things a certain way, say prayers in such and such language, desist from eating X or Y, and who formulates human law is BLASPHEMY. The Purusha does not care how you live your life, how you approach Him / Her / It, what human occupations you follow, what laws you are supposed to follow and live life by (what humanization that is !) AND is not out to "get you" if you were to fail or fall etc. In short, this Inifinite Purusha is beyond Humanization and Personification and is devoid of the human weaknesses that characterize the so-called "Gods" of montheistic religions.

... Contd :

Then, why so many schools of thought and so many deities and so many modes of worship, you ask ?

That is for the benefit of mere mortals such as you and me who are unlikely to have that level of consciousness to fully comprehend the Infinite One, who existed before Time, who exists now, who will exist after Time, and who exists in every living soul and in every non-living object that has ever existed, currently exists or will ever exist. And this Purusha gives you the laissez faire to learn to comprehend It with any means you have and any way that appeals to you or which are able to be grasped by your (and my) limited intellect.

The Trinity in Sanatana Dharma and Their Consorts are but means by which to know and understand the Supreme Brahmam. People worship Brahma or Vishnu or Shiva, knowing that these "Gods" (note quotes) are but aides that assist the individual Jeevatmas in attaining that Brahmam. "All roads lead to Rome" is the root tenet of Sanatana Dharma, so any and all modes of worship are passe, unlike your monotheistic religions that insist on YOUR WAY or the freaking Highway.

... Contd:

In fact, some schools of Dharmic Philosophy - such as Advaita - go one step foward, reject theism altogether and urges humans to attain the Brahmam who exists in everything, including in one's own self. "Aham Brahmasmi" is a Samskritam sentence that means "I am Brahmam". This could even be considered atheism, as Shankara appeared to elevate the individual Jeevatma to the ranks of the Paramatma in his Viveka Choodamani.

But you can be forgiven for your misunderstanding given that many many Hindus still harbour the same "mis-conceptions", and struggle with serious misunderstandings of the true nature of Karma, Janma, and Moksha.

Last part :


One pet peeve of mine is how many Hindus grossly and blasphemously personify the Purusha (or the Paramatma) by attempting to barter with Him / Her / It. For example, some people go to temples and plead with the Deity to "commute" their Karma for this birth into something more bearable in exchange for X / Y / Z. Almost as if they could offer anything even remotely of value to the Supreme Being who is the Creator of all. They may believe, for instance, that they should not eat meat on Friday... or worship another Deity in the Pantheon. Seriously, do you think the Universe cares if you worship X or Y when It reigns Supreme and is utterly devoid of the entirely human feelings of insecurity and jealousy ? There was even a post recently about how a child allegedly bartered with the Parama Purusha to live a certain Karma this janma in exchange for.... ! !! Words cannot explain how utterly ridiculous that is. However, such beliefs are not unique to those who misinterpret Sanatana Dharma. It is, in fact, a real problem with monotheism - the gross Humanization of the Universe as an entity that might smite you if you were to worship something other than Itself ! The Universe is beyond such human pettiness and selfishness and any monotheistic "God" who insists on its exclusive worship is embodied by such pettiness and insecurity that it hardly deserves the title of "God". But whatever floats your boat, lady.

Now, about your claim of India's allegedly appalling human rights history : First of all, YOU don't want to go there. Second of all, India has a sizeable Muslim population, especially for a "minority". AND, it has a terrorist Islamic state for a neighbour. So, before you foam at the mouth about India's alleged human rights violation, purportedly by its Hindu majority, you may want to take a long, hard look in the mirror.

But, love, if you insist on playing this game with me and want to talk crap about India, BRING IT ON. Back your allegations with stats, numbers and hard data, and we'll talk. A lot.

Note to the moderators : The reason I had to make multiple posts was because the captcha kept booting me out and would not let me post. I believed that it was the length of the response and not the content itself that created the problem, and I was probably right because my single post went through when broken up into multiples. If you are able to edit all of this content back into one post, that would be great. Thank you !

^^
Jaggi Vasudev had a recent video, talking about an incident between Ramakrishna and Swami Vivikenanda, that really cemented that point - ie. that petitionary prayer is a sign of profanity.

I still don't know whether the East has it more correct or whether both East and West overshoot the mark in opposite directions. In the west you have charity but little or no gnostic culture aside from what's generally deemed esoteric and occult. In the East it seems like it's somewhat the opposite - the slogan comes to mind 'Tears of strangers are like water'.

I agree that that comment about "India's appalling human rights record" is an odd, and baffling statement.

Is there another country on the Asian landmass with a better human rights record than India? What country would that be? Certainly not Pakistan, China, Burma, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia (second only to China in number of political prisoners), or North Korea.

India is the biggest, and arguably the most successful, democracy in the world. Only two other countries in Asia have operated continuously as democracies as long as India has:Israel, and Japan.

But that's if by "India" you mean "the government of India".

If Barchan did not mean the government of India but the people of India as a seperate topic from their government then it is true that there are backward communities in India where the people do outrageous things: like continue the Caste system, have child brides, and even human sacrafices.Stuff that the government opposes but cant always stop. So in THAT other sense you could say that "India violates human rights". But with one fifth of the population of the world its to be expected that India would be home to about one fifth of the crazy sick stuff that goes on in the world.

Have not seen the video, nor do I follow any mortal "Gurus", but yes, the "petitionary prayer" is blasphemous, as it grossly denigrates the Purusha into a human-like entity that can be bartered with.

But regarding the comment that the East considers the suffering of strangers / non-kin to be unimportant ? I don't think so. I think the qualities of empathy, kindness and consideration are not cornered by any one culture or population. These are uniquely human attributes that are found in people across races / cultures - it has nothing, IMO, to do with one's culture, although the products of some cultures (rabid radical Islam, primarily) tend to be a lot more intolerant of others and utterly indifferent to human suffering, when it is not the suffering of "one of their own".

Naturalplastic, as urbanization spreads, we hope to see a complete end to practices such as child marriages and the caste system. The caste system is actually almost over and done with, and the current PM of India - Narendra Modi - is from a supposedly "lower caste", while many of his proteges (Devendra Fadnavis, for example) could be considered "higher caste". Also, with "reservation policies", it is actually better in this day and age to be a Dalit, as opposed to a Brahman !

But an aside - recently, the Government passed a law that all school aged children enrolled in "religious institutions", such as Vedic schools and the madarsas, MUST receive compulsory education in the sciences, mathematics and the arts in order to be considered "adequately schooled".

Guess who complained the loudest and the most vociferously that this law encroached on their right to "practice their religion" ?

Barchan, oh really ? You want me to go back and quote what you DID write / claimed ? And, do you read for comprehension ?

Nope, I don't care whether you're a Muslim or a Christian or a Jew or a Hindu or a Buddhist or a purple dinosaur with pink polka dots but I do care what you say about a religion and a country that you obviously know next-to-nothing about. Yes, you claimed that India does not "have a good track record in human rights" because it has a majority Hindu population, that Sanatana Dharma is polytheistic, and that Hindus are intolerant. And when I called you out on those claims, you back-tracked and accuse me of being antagonistic towards you ! Listen, if you are unable to support any claims, then the intelligent thing to do would be to desist from making such claims in the first place.

So now you claim that India has "glaring problems" ? Really, like what ? Again, statistics and cold, hard, data, please.

And, heck yeah, the Purusha is a damned reasonable "fellow", if you must insist on humanizing Him. So much so that He does not even care if you or I occasionally refer to Him as Her or It or by some random name... and no, you don't have to immediately follow every mention of Him with the highest accolades such as "the Highest", "the Most Eminent", the "Ever Merciful", blah blah blah. The Purusha does not need to be reminded or constantly flattered about how awesome and cool and tolerant and merciful and omnipotent He is !

How about your Allah ? Is he an equally tolerant and cool fellow ?