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Feminism Has to Go...

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TheExodus
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06 Feb 2016, 8:05 pm

100000fireflies wrote:
TheExodus wrote:
Feminism is very toxic right now, nobody much wants to associate with it anymore. It's why it's become a dirty word to many people. I think the biggest stab was with GamerGate, how Feminists tried to hijack it and claim it to be a "misogynist hate group", which it obviously wasn't (or isn't, if it's still functional). As has been said numerous times before; Feminists made the mistake of picking a fight with gamers and thinking that they'd win.

Whatever you feel is the largest insult regarding the third wave Feminist movement (be it Laci Green, Anita Sarkeesian, Rebecca Watson, college campuses, Canada, political correctness, etc.), it's evident why so many people have grown to hate it. Funnily enough, I had once had somebody convince me that that side of Feminism is just a vocal minority and that most Feminists do believe in equality. That being said, let's just say I've become far more jaded since then.

Fugu wrote:
slenkar wrote:
In the sixties and seventies feminist structures were created
E.g.
Women's studies departments
Ms magazine
Organizations like NOW

Subsequently feminists got everything they wanted in like 1980

But they can't admit it as hundreds of jobs are at stake
is that why women on average got paid 80% of what men did in 2010?
http://www.ilo.org/washington/areas/gender-equality-in-the-workplace/WCMS_159496/lang--en/index.htm


All that link proves is that women work less than men. If anything else was going on, we'd have heard about it by now. If there were anything else involved, it would technically be unlawful. That's all there is involved in the wage gap; technicalities.


So everything "unlawful" never happens?


Show me legal cases where businesses have been sued for paying women less than men for the same work.


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Misslizard
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06 Feb 2016, 8:06 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
One parent should stay at home, and women are generally better at looking after the children. If I was a boss of a big company where a woman could take a years maternity leave, i'd rather employ a man.

That's not necessarily true.There are men that are great with kids.I think men should also get paid maternity leave.They may have the job for years,but only a small window of time to enjoy bonding with a newborn.


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TheExodus
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06 Feb 2016, 8:08 pm

LKL wrote:
Yes. And people are willing to pay women less. They expect to pay women less for the same level of work.


No, they're not. Please stop propagating this lie. It's getting tiresome now. The wage gap has been debunked a million and one times, and it's gone above and beyond embarrassing that people are still using it as an argument.


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LKL
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06 Feb 2016, 8:13 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
One parent should stay at home, and women are generally better at looking after the children. If I was a boss of a big company where a woman could take a years maternity leave, i'd rather employ a man.

1)most families cannot afford to furlough one parent for decades of child care.
2)Men should get paternity leave, too.

@ Exodus: please see the data above. You can go to the same website and put in other job types as well as the ones I picked off the top of my head: jobs that are traditionally taken by women pay less than jobs that are traditionally taken by men, for the same amount of training and the same amount of hours per week. I can document the hell out of this, though, so by all means let me know if the raw data isn't enough for you.



Last edited by LKL on 06 Feb 2016, 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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06 Feb 2016, 8:13 pm

LKL wrote:
Yes. And people are willing to pay women less. They expect to pay women less for the same level of work.


http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... re/414496/

Quote:
Betty Henderson, who runs a childcare center in Detroit, is all too familiar with the struggle to provide care for kids and also make money. Henderson’s facility employs three lead teachers to take care of 19 children, ranging in age from two weeks to six years old. Her staff’s salaries are around $9 an hour, but Henderson says that after she gets done paying for staffing, rent, and materials for her daycare, there’s not much left over.


The french system is different. There is more mixed age groups, more emphasis on group learning rather than individual oriented learning. There are mixed opinions but some say they are more socialised.



Misslizard
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06 Feb 2016, 8:14 pm

TheExodus wrote:
LKL wrote:
Yes. And people are willing to pay women less. They expect to pay women less for the same level of work.


No, they're not. Please stop propagating this lie. It's getting tiresome now. The wage gap has been debunked a million and one times, and it's gone above and beyond embarrassing that people are still using it as an argument.

Yeah......
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/10/ ... as-womens/


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100000fireflies
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06 Feb 2016, 8:23 pm

TheExodus wrote:
100000fireflies wrote:
TheExodus wrote:
Feminism is very toxic right now, nobody much wants to associate with it anymore. It's why it's become a dirty word to many people. I think the biggest stab was with GamerGate, how Feminists tried to hijack it and claim it to be a "misogynist hate group", which it obviously wasn't (or isn't, if it's still functional). As has been said numerous times before; Feminists made the mistake of picking a fight with gamers and thinking that they'd win.

Whatever you feel is the largest insult regarding the third wave Feminist movement (be it Laci Green, Anita Sarkeesian, Rebecca Watson, college campuses, Canada, political correctness, etc.), it's evident why so many people have grown to hate it. Funnily enough, I had once had somebody convince me that that side of Feminism is just a vocal minority and that most Feminists do believe in equality. That being said, let's just say I've become far more jaded since then.

Fugu wrote:
slenkar wrote:
In the sixties and seventies feminist structures were created
E.g.
Women's studies departments
Ms magazine
Organizations like NOW

Subsequently feminists got everything they wanted in like 1980

But they can't admit it as hundreds of jobs are at stake
is that why women on average got paid 80% of what men did in 2010?
http://www.ilo.org/washington/areas/gender-equality-in-the-workplace/WCMS_159496/lang--en/index.htm


All that link proves is that women work less than men. If anything else was going on, we'd have heard about it by now. If there were anything else involved, it would technically be unlawful. That's all there is involved in the wage gap; technicalities.


So everything "unlawful" never happens?


Show me legal cases where businesses have been sued for paying women less than men for the same work.


First, show me -any- proof that that which is illegal, by definition does not occur.


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06 Feb 2016, 8:24 pm

Also, it's important to note that the wage gap is worse for latina and black women than it is for white women, and may be worse for black and latino men than it is for white women as well.



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06 Feb 2016, 8:31 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
One parent should stay at home, and women are generally better at looking after the children. If I was a boss of a big company where a woman could take a years maternity leave, i'd rather employ a man.


And that is why i still would say i'm a feminist.
This statement is not remotely outlandish or uncommon. There remains a decently common the view that women are or should do x or y and men are better at z. (Not to mention the fact that many companies still do not offer such leave for the male). These underlying beliefs feed into and propagate important things such as career opportunity and wage differences.

The same underlying concepts exist in machismo and men who are kind or show being sensitive are weak "p*****s" aka girls. Men who aren't this or that aren't a real man...and it is not they aren't a real 'man' but are an equal being, it is not a real man = inferior.


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JohnPowell
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06 Feb 2016, 8:33 pm

Misslizard wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
One parent should stay at home, and women are generally better at looking after the children. If I was a boss of a big company where a woman could take a years maternity leave, i'd rather employ a man.

That's not necessarily true.There are men that are great with kids.I think men should also get paid maternity leave.They may have the job for years,but only a small window of time to enjoy bonding with a newborn.


Hence why I said women are "generally" better. "Paternity" leave, yes. Either parent staying at home would be sufficient.


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100000fireflies
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06 Feb 2016, 8:35 pm

Misslizard wrote:
TheExodus wrote:
LKL wrote:
Yes. And people are willing to pay women less. They expect to pay women less for the same level of work.


No, they're not. Please stop propagating this lie. It's getting tiresome now. The wage gap has been debunked a million and one times, and it's gone above and beyond embarrassing that people are still using it as an argument.

Yeah......
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2015/10/ ... as-womens/


Fox originally offered anderson (scully) HAlf of what they offered duchovny (mulder) for the xfiles remake.


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JohnPowell
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06 Feb 2016, 8:37 pm

LKL wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
One parent should stay at home, and women are generally better at looking after the children. If I was a boss of a big company where a woman could take a years maternity leave, i'd rather employ a man.

1)most families cannot afford to furlough one parent for decades of child care.
2)Men should get paternity leave, too.

@ Exodus: please see the data above. You can go to the same website and put in other job types as well as the ones I picked off the top of my head: jobs that are traditionally taken by women pay less than jobs that are traditionally taken by men, for the same amount of training and the same amount of hours per week. I can document the hell out of this, though, so by all means let me know if the raw data isn't enough for you.


1) Right, and that is intentional, the powers that be want both sexes at work paying taxes and then another childcare worker paying more tax.
2) Agreed, though not for very long, unless they are the stay at home parent.


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06 Feb 2016, 8:38 pm

I think the word "feminism" has acquired so many different meanings as to be useless when we use it to try to communicate. It should be designated as Obsolete in dictionaries. I'm not sure we need new words, or maybe just issue-specific words. And geo-specific qualifiers as well - e.g. USA and Syria have different vocabularies for these things.



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06 Feb 2016, 8:42 pm

100000fireflies wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
One parent should stay at home, and women are generally better at looking after the children. If I was a boss of a big company where a woman could take a years maternity leave, i'd rather employ a man.


And that is why i still would say i'm a feminist.
This statement is not remotely outlandish or uncommon. There remains a decently common the view that women are or should do x or y and men are better at z. (Not to mention the fact that many companies still do not offer such leave for the male). These underlying beliefs feed into and propagate important things such as career opportunity and wage differences.

The same underlying concepts exist in machismo and men who are kind or show being sensitive are weak "p*****s" aka girls. Men who aren't this or that aren't a real man...and it is not they aren't a real 'man' but are an equal being, it is not a real man = inferior.


Feminism was about stopping stupid restrictions, like not being able to vote or go to university. It wasn't to make men and women the same, because they are not. I see no problem in the man staying at home, as there are numerous professions that I have found women to be generally better at, especially doctors.


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06 Feb 2016, 9:14 pm

LKL wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
One parent should stay at home, and women are generally better at looking after the children. If I was a boss of a big company where a woman could take a years maternity leave, i'd rather employ a man.

1)most families cannot afford to furlough one parent for decades of child care.
2)Men should get paternity leave, too.

@ Exodus: please see the data above. You can go to the same website and put in other job types as well as the ones I picked off the top of my head: jobs that are traditionally taken by women pay less than jobs that are traditionally taken by men, for the same amount of training and the same amount of hours per week. I can document the hell out of this, though, so by all means let me know if the raw data isn't enough for you.


Could you please list jobs that you consider female?
Nursing was the first thing I thought of but there are many male nurses, so I honestly don't know which jobs are considered for women.



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06 Feb 2016, 10:05 pm

JohnPowell wrote:
100000fireflies wrote:
JohnPowell wrote:
One parent should stay at home, and women are generally better at looking after the children. If I was a boss of a big company where a woman could take a years maternity leave, i'd rather employ a man.


And that is why i still would say i'm a feminist.
This statement is not remotely outlandish or uncommon. There remains a decently common the view that women are or should do x or y and men are better at z. (Not to mention the fact that many companies still do not offer such leave for the male). These underlying beliefs feed into and propagate important things such as career opportunity and wage differences.

The same underlying concepts exist in machismo and men who are kind or show being sensitive are weak "p*****s" aka girls. Men who aren't this or that aren't a real man...and it is not they aren't a real 'man' but are an equal being, it is not a real man = inferior.


Feminism was about stopping stupid restrictions, like not being able to vote or go to university. It wasn't to make men and women the same, because they are not. I see no problem in the man staying at home, as there are numerous professions that I have found women to be generally better at, especially doctors.


You don't see lack of equal pay for equal work and career opportunities based purely on sex as stupid, significant quality of life changing restrictions? Why would going to a university matter if after we had to be housewives?

We're not the same, all men and women. Nor do i have the same abilities and tendencies as Sally just because we both lack testicles.


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