Am I the only one who finds "God" to be baffling?

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Drone232
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09 May 2016, 11:10 am

pcuser, I have an idea for you. You say that it would be more worthwhile for an omnipotent and omnicient being (as God is said to be) to create beings like itself to interact with. But I don't think that there can be multiple all-powerful beings. I think that multiple beings that are all powerful would coelesce into the same being. Let assume there is a highly advanced civilization that figures out how to transcend physical bodies into A.I.'s or some other form. What is stopping them from combining all into a single entity over time. Let's say we figure out telepathy and thought communication. What is stopping us from becoming all of the same mind. God could have well been multiple beings who combined into a single entity, but all of this is meaningless guesswork. In summary, I think limited, differentiated Gods is more likely then several all-powerful beings. i still side with monotheism, but polytheism over multi-monotheism which is what I am calling the multiple all-powerful Gods theory.


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Drone232
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09 May 2016, 11:16 am

I do agree with all your other points though, pcuser. Religion is, ultimately, an unrealistic and idealist agenda that is unworkabl in the real world. Dousn't mean we should stop trying though. Make the world a better place and all that.


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pcuser
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09 May 2016, 11:41 am

Drone232 wrote:
pcuser, I have an idea for you. You say that it would be more worthwhile for an omnipotent and omnicient being (as God is said to be) to create beings like itself to interact with. But I don't think that there can be multiple all-powerful beings. I think that multiple beings that are all powerful would coelesce into the same being. Let assume there is a highly advanced civilization that figures out how to transcend physical bodies into A.I.'s or some other form. What is stopping them from combining all into a single entity over time. Let's say we figure out telepathy and thought communication. What is stopping us from becoming all of the same mind. God could have well been multiple beings who combined into a single entity, but all of this is meaningless guesswork. In summary, I think limited, differentiated Gods is more likely then several all-powerful beings. i still side with monotheism, but polytheism over multi-monotheism which is what I am calling the multiple all-powerful Gods theory.

Since you are using wild conjectures to limit your Gods, why not simply conjecture that there are no Gods or God???



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09 May 2016, 12:41 pm

You may or may not believe in god, however it suits your life.

That doesn't mean however, that god is "stupid" and doesn't make any sense.

The nature of god really is, that its an all-creating force of everything that is. And that everything that is, follows a certain pattern of creation which results in the world as we know it. This unarguably makes absolute sense, since creation without pattern or existence without creation would not be possible at all. We wouldn't exist, and the universe would be some sort of meaningless blob of absolute randomness. Order cannot come from nothing, it is created by rules, which exactly are as intricate and purposeful as to carry the entirety and complexity of their creation and nothing less. Any sort of coincidence in this creation, such as the many worlds theory postulates, entirely escapes our only and existing universe that we most evidently know of, and thus escapes reality itself as basis to explain it. If you prefer this unreal explanation instead, really is a matter of attitude. Taking any number of imaginable and unimaginable fantasy realities and universes in addition to ours as a basis, one does indeed not need to assume that god exists. Otherwise, a blunt denial contrary to better knowledge, is of course also a workable possiblity within your belief system.

However god manifests reality, is unfathomable in its entirety of detail and thereby god itself is not fathomable from our limited perspectives. Science may invent rules, which simplify understanding processes within our world, such as Newton's laws or Einstein's theories of relativity, but the actuality of reality and its detail will always defy the simlification to some degree. Making an absolutely true prediction, through science or not, in our world is impossible. In contrast to that, god is fundamentally characterized by such absoluteness. Which makes god less comprehensible within in our physical world and much less useful to apparent purposes, than any kind of reduction and simplification of its meaning. One can study the advancements of science in biology, biochemistry, evolution, mathematics, physics and so forth, and thereby try to understand the many underlying rules and patterns which lead to the complexity of life in its great detail. But one can never truly understand the causalities and implications of the bigger picture in connection to the greater fundamental force behind it.

Religions process this all differently, since its most difficult to derive meaning and purpose to our own lives from the true nature of god itself. God is incredibly easy to understand as an idea, but the more so difficult to properly connect to our physical world. Christianity for example proposes to accept god as a father figure, rather than some mysterious supernatural entity or force that you can never even personally connect to in your life. This may seem confusing, because it personifies god with the intent of simplifying your emotional relationship hence dedication to it. God is obviously not a person, and many people have difficulties to understand what this truly means. Christinanity also proposes that god basically has been reborn into Jesus, as best as possible as human being. A figure which tried to convey moral values and our peaceful coexistence. Which is obviously in line with our evolutionary and cultural goals. The same way, religions try to convey an understanding and rules, which similarily intend to bring people more in line with the greater picture of gods creation. The wisdoms of religion were equally created for the poor and rich, the smart and dumb, the dedicated and not dedicated believers and our long dead ancestors. It is very easy to frame any sort of detail within it as nonsensical. But it takes a lot of effort and intelligence to actually study and understand the meaning behind it that describes the nature of our world and our existence. Meaning that cannot be found in science nor textbooks. It may just be too difficult for most who do not have the time.


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09 May 2016, 2:04 pm

C0NPAQ wrote:
You may or may not believe in god, however it suits your life.

That doesn't mean however, that god is "stupid" and doesn't make any sense.

The nature of god really is, that its an all-creating force of everything that is. And that everything that is, follows a certain pattern of creation which results in the world as we know it. This unarguably makes absolute sense, since creation without pattern or existence without creation would not be possible at all. We wouldn't exist, and the universe would be some sort of meaningless blob of absolute randomness. Order cannot come from nothing, it is created by rules, which exactly are as intricate and purposeful as to carry the entirety and complexity of their creation and nothing less. Any sort of coincidence in this creation, such as the many worlds theory postulates, entirely escapes our only and existing universe that we most evidently know of, and thus escapes reality itself as basis to explain it. If you prefer this unreal explanation instead, really is a matter of attitude. Taking any number of imaginable and unimaginable fantasy realities and universes in addition to ours as a basis, one does indeed not need to assume that god exists. Otherwise, a blunt denial contrary to better knowledge, is of course also a workable possiblity within your belief system.

However god manifests reality, is unfathomable in its entirety of detail and thereby god itself is not fathomable from our limited perspectives. Science may invent rules, which simplify understanding processes within our world, such as Newton's laws or Einstein's theories of relativity, but the actuality of reality and its detail will always defy the simlification to some degree. Making an absolutely true prediction, through science or not, in our world is impossible. In contrast to that, god is fundamentally characterized by such absoluteness. Which makes god less comprehensible within in our physical world and much less useful to apparent purposes, than any kind of reduction and simplification of its meaning. One can study the advancements of science in biology, biochemistry, evolution, mathematics, physics and so forth, and thereby try to understand the many underlying rules and patterns which lead to the complexity of life in its great detail. But one can never truly understand the causalities and implications of the bigger picture in connection to the greater fundamental force behind it.

Religions process this all differently, since its most difficult to derive meaning and purpose to our own lives from the true nature of god itself. God is incredibly easy to understand as an idea, but the more so difficult to properly connect to our physical world. Christianity for example proposes to accept god as a father figure, rather than some mysterious supernatural entity or force that you can never even personally connect to in your life. This may seem confusing, because it personifies god with the intent of simplifying your emotional relationship hence dedication to it. God is obviously not a person, and many people have difficulties to understand what this truly means. Christinanity also proposes that god basically has been reborn into Jesus, as best as possible as human being. A figure which tried to convey moral values and our peaceful coexistence. Which is obviously in line with our evolutionary and cultural goals. The same way, religions try to convey an understanding and rules, which similarily intend to bring people more in line with the greater picture of gods creation. The wisdoms of religion were equally created for the poor and rich, the smart and dumb, the dedicated and not dedicated believers and our long dead ancestors. It is very easy to frame any sort of detail within it as nonsensical. But it takes a lot of effort and intelligence to actually study and understand the meaning behind it that describes the nature of our world and our existence. Meaning that cannot be found in science nor textbooks. It may just be too difficult for most who do not have the time.

First, I never said belief was stupid. It's simply a belief with no evidence to support it. You state "This unarguably makes absolute sense, since creation without pattern or existence without creation would not be possible at all". This statement is false and has no evidence to support it. There is no evidence there at all. So, your entire argument collapses before it begins...



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09 May 2016, 2:11 pm

What evidence is there, to support the rules of mathematics?

God is a necessity of logic. As I explained.

Maybe this is more comprehensible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjqJezYqO9w


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09 May 2016, 2:14 pm

"Order cannot come from nothing, it is created by rules, which exactly are as intricate and purposeful as to carry the entirety and complexity of their creation and nothing less."

I write computer algorithms for a living, and I can tell you that complex behavior can be the result of simple rules. Have you seen fractal algorithms? They are infinitely complex, and the equation that generates them can be one line of code.



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09 May 2016, 2:15 pm

C0NPAQ wrote:
What evidence is there, to support the rules of mathematics?

God is a necessity of logic. As I explained.

Maybe this is more comprehensible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjqJezYqO9w

Logic itself is self justifying, but god isn't.



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09 May 2016, 2:20 pm

C0NPAQ wrote:
What evidence is there, to support the rules of mathematics?

God is a necessity of logic. As I explained.

Maybe this is more comprehensible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjqJezYqO9w

There is no evidence to support the rules of mathematics. It's simply a tool that works well to quantify nature. No area of mathematics depends on nothing. They all have basic axioms upon which they rest. Those axioms are assumed to be true for that field of math, kind of like your belief in religion. They are different in that they work in the real world, unlike how religion is nothing more than a belief that effects nothing. Your argument still falls apart before it begins...



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09 May 2016, 2:21 pm

AspE wrote:
"Order cannot come from nothing, it is created by rules, which exactly are as intricate and purposeful as to carry the entirety and complexity of their creation and nothing less."

I write computer algorithms for a living, and I can tell you that complex behavior can be the result of simple rules. Have you seen fractal algorithms? They are infinitely complex, and the equation that generates them can be one line of code.

I like your response...



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09 May 2016, 3:37 pm

AspE wrote:
I write computer algorithms for a living, and I can tell you that complex behavior can be the result of simple rules. Have you seen fractal algorithms? They are infinitely complex, and the equation that generates them can be one line of code.

Yes, I am well informed about fractals. They are for one an abstract mathematical concept, their complexity is measured by fractal dimension. On the other hand, a fractal pattern does not simply occur through one line of code, but only through a complex computer or natural system which supports it.

Fractals as we can understand them are simplistic, in comparison to the universe. Even if we somehow understood, how the universe could be generated by one simple formula, it would be a formula impossible to compute to make any kind of statement about this world. And thereby, it would be entirely meaningless as a tool of science and understanding. It could as well remain unknown.

So you see, that having some formula, does not tell you anything about this world and its creations. A formula is not god, it is just something we made up in our minds. Realizing how god is and how god creates in reality however, carries a lot of meaning.


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09 May 2016, 3:55 pm

C0NPAQ wrote:
AspE wrote:
I write computer algorithms for a living, and I can tell you that complex behavior can be the result of simple rules. Have you seen fractal algorithms? They are infinitely complex, and the equation that generates them can be one line of code.

Yes, I am well informed about fractals. They are for one an abstract mathematical concept, their complexity is measured by fractal dimension. On the other hand, a fractal pattern does not simply occur through one line of code, but only through a complex computer or natural system which supports it.

Fractals as we can understand them are simplistic, in comparison to the universe. Even if we somehow understood, how the universe could be generated by one simple formula, it would be a formula impossible to compute to make any kind of statement about this world. And thereby, it would be entirely meaningless as a tool of science and understanding. It could as well remain unknown.

So you see, that having some formula, does not tell you anything about this world and its creations. A formula is not god, it is just something we made up in our minds. Realizing how god is and how god creates in reality however, carries a lot of meaning.

You said the rules that create need to be as complex as the thing they create, and that's not true. Therefore it doesn't follow that a complex universe needs a complex cause, therefore God is that cause.



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09 May 2016, 5:08 pm

I didn't say that rules need to be as complex as the outcome. I said that the rules are as "intricate and purposeful as to carry the entirety and complexity of their creation and nothing less".


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09 May 2016, 5:17 pm

A Theory of Everything would tell you a lot about the world, even if it's not used to predict the outcome of a big bang (quantum indeterminacy making that inherently unpredictable). Why can't rules come from nothing? Why can't rules be arbitrary? This universe wouldn't have to be the goal, just one possible result.



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09 May 2016, 5:58 pm

C0NPAQ wrote:
AspE wrote:
I write computer algorithms for a living, and I can tell you that complex behavior can be the result of simple rules. Have you seen fractal algorithms? They are infinitely complex, and the equation that generates them can be one line of code.

Yes, I am well informed about fractals. They are for one an abstract mathematical concept, their complexity is measured by fractal dimension. On the other hand, a fractal pattern does not simply occur through one line of code, but only through a complex computer or natural system which supports it.

Fractals as we can understand them are simplistic, in comparison to the universe. Even if we somehow understood, how the universe could be generated by one simple formula, it would be a formula impossible to compute to make any kind of statement about this world. And thereby, it would be entirely meaningless as a tool of science and understanding. It could as well remain unknown.

So you see, that having some formula, does not tell you anything about this world and its creations. A formula is not god, it is just something we made up in our minds. Realizing how god is and how god creates in reality however, carries a lot of meaning.

As if God isn't something made up in one's mind....



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10 May 2016, 8:29 pm

This week I'm again working on not getting baffled with surprise changes.
Yes I ask God for help in the morning.

I thank God each time a twist in my day happens and I don't over react.

Working with folks that happens all the time.

How did your beliefs in God or not
affect your behavior today? (Other than posting on WP)

:o :o
8) 8) 8)


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