US poor whites are manipulated

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It makes a difference because it skews people's perspectives on things, I've actually been a minority most my life in the city I lived in and I feel like I understand the problems of the community at least as far it pertains to the urban ghettos out east. I'm not talking about a few token kids everybody loves because they play on the football and basketball team, the schools I went to weren't too nice. I've seen poverty, I've lived in neighborhoods that you would probably be afraid to drive thru, you can't understand it unless you've lived it. We weren't even allowed to go to our high school basketball games because they were too afraid literal riots breaking out not among the kid but their parents.

It's a totally different dynamic when you are just one of the tribes as opposed to thee tribe. When you're from a place that is 90% white and probably was almost exclusively white up until not to long you can't begin to understand what's real and what isn't, Rachel Dolezal is the NCAA head in Spokane right? That's whats exactly what I am talking about, race and diversity are a novelty to people like this and the white guilt can become so extreme that people will literally deny their race. You have to understand that you've been fed a narrative for a political purpose, the world only exists as far as you can see it so what the TV tells you must be true right? CNN is not much better when it comes to race baiting.

It's not about having a less or more charitable view of minorities, you don't really understand the issues in the community or have any idea of what their life experiences so you are going off what someone says and everyone has an agenda. Once you actually live with people you stop looking at them as simply as races and actually as real live people warts and all, you can start diagnosing the actual issues at that point. How can you know if racism is such a huge issue if you don't live around any other races?

I like Trump because he has smashed the Republican establishment, he is vowing to blow up these awful trade deals, he doesn't want an interventionist foreign policy, and he wants to make use of diplomacy and make peace with Russia. I've explained my support in detail numerous occasions, how does it make me racist or misogynistic? I find it rich that a WHITE MALE is telling me this by the way, it's exactly what I am talking about, you guys just can't help but to take this paternalistic view towards race or gender.

I live in a border state now, I will say the community I live in is probably 'browner' than yours if you want to dick size over that, and I can see first hand the issues it causes in this state which are considerable but it is a COMPLETELY different type of community than types you see back out east in those urban ghettos. They don't really have ghettos out here, it's a very diverse place as far race and socioeconomic status go. A McMansion next to a shanty built onto single wide is pretty much Arizona in a nutshell. You don't live in the city in the city if you have means to live somewhere else where I was born, the people that lived there were pretty much abandoned and have been trapped in poverty for generations. It is very easy for people that do not have to deal with the impacts of illegal immigration not to see the issue with but it hurts the poorest most vulnerable Americans and that disproportionately means minorities.

How is Hillary going to do those things by the way? You will not be happy with any answer I give you even tho I've responded to the question multiple times. How about you answer it. You know whats funny is I think economic views have changed quite a bit over the last couple years in between these elections, I have had my own life experiences and I feel less obliged to follow some strict ideology but apparently I'm a racist and misogynist now even tho I believe what I believe because I think it would help the people I grew up with which weren't a bunch of lily white suburban kids. Trump plans are his plans, they are starting points as everyone's plan really is because let me tell you Bernie Sanders wouldn't be able to accomplish 10% of what he is promising. Do you support NAFTA? Do you support the Iraq War? They're simple questions.

No, Dolezal is no longer the head of the Spokane NAACP, as she stepped down out of shame for her deluded deception. That is sad, as she had genuinely cared about the plight of African Americans in the Spokane area, but as it turns out, crazy people do crazy things. When she had claimed she was sent a package filled with racist symbols and threats, the police in their investigation had found the package was never mailed from anywhere else, but was put into her P.O. box. After clearing all the postal employees after a thorough investigation, they came to the conclusion only she could have put the package in the box herself. Also, the young African American man she claimed was her son was in fact her foster brother, who after the scandal had few good words for her. She is a strange person who perpetrated a deception, rewriting her whole personal history, because she so identified with black America, but that hardly means the rest of us in the Northwest are going to be "racially confused" out of white guilt.
As for people in my part of the country having any grasp of racism where there are so few minorities - in fact, we were able to see racism from the other angle, in the form of fanatical racists and racist gangs, such as the Aryan Nations, the Order, the Phineas Brotherhood, and the heroes of the right, Randy Weaver and family. They came to north Idaho, just mere miles away from the Spokane on the other side of the state line, because the area was lily white. We had to live with racist fanatics who demonstrated time and again that they weren't afraid of perpetrating violence against both minorities and whites who they considered to be their enemies. Even as these groups in the end either ended up in prison, the graveyard, or just self destructed and moved away, we saw that ungodly racist plague for what it is. That's how I am able to tell that racism is such a big issue.

Other than the fact that you happened to live in the same region, what was your exposure or personal experience with it? Posse Comitatus was active here in Wisconsin near where and around the time my mother grew up so how did you experience differ? Stuff like that is all around the country, it's here in Arizona for sure but I don't see militants and racist gangs about. People playing dress up in the woods really doesn't scare me or have much relevance in anything in my opinion, people like that who come to somewhere that desolated probably want to be left alone and I'd oblige since why would you want anything to do with them anyways? What is the actual number of these people as a percentage of the population? You act like you lived in Nazi Germany.

Well, you're the one who suggested that one cannot have an opinion about race unless you've done your time in the hood, so yeah, apparently WE DO have to measure dicks....

Other than a few years as a child in Hawaii (as a marine corps brat) and a few years in Kansas as an adult, I've spent my entire life on the east coast and in the deep south. If you want a hell hole, try Memphis in the 70s. I've seen and experienced a lot of poverty and toxic race relations....

Right now, I live in the south, in a metro area of about 500,000. The area is about 60% white and 35% Hispanic. It also VERY segregated. My neighborhood is about 10% white, 20% Marshal Islander and 70% Hispanic.

I don't know these number because I live there, however. I know them because I also did 6 months of fieldwork/research/data collection at a local nonprofit that deals with homelessness and poverty.

You know what's weird? About 90% of our clients were white despite the fact that they have much lower poverty rates than the Hispanics or Marshallese. The vast majority of the Hispanics and Marshallese (recent immigrants all) are hardworking and self-reliant.

Also, despite this INVASION of so called rapists and murders this area always comes up in the top 5 BEST PLACES to live... Weird huh?

Maybe the problem isn't immigrants? Maybe they are just grumpy because of all the harassment and BS they have to put up with in your neck of the woods...

They really aren't causing problems here.



Hillary isn't talking about breaking a bunch of s**t. However, if she were, I'd want detailed plans from her too.

As sh***y as our current trade situation is, it is better than having another global recession. That's what Trump is likely to cause because he doesn't know what he's doing.

No, my point was that people that have no real exposure to race which just comes from living around people tend to skewed perspective on things. That doesn't mean everyone and that can go both ways, it's pretty odd to hate Jews if you've never actually met one but there are people that do. It's both ignorance, one more good hearted than the other obviously but I can see how it can either way. Now apparently you have you 'street cred' , I'm sorry for questioning it, I do have to google these Marshall Islanders as I've never heard of these people so that will be interesting to learn about another culture.(Springdale I'm guessing, pretty fascinating that concentration, why? Of all the places...)

I did live around quite a few Hmong refugees who came from I believe Cambodia and Vietnam who for whatever reason came to Midwest of all places and these people have struggled quite a bit at integration and getting ahead especially in comparison to other Asian peoples at least in Wisconsin and Minnesota I believe as far as I experienced. The movie Gran Torino isn't terribly far off, the Hmong gangs are actually some of the more dangerous ones at least they were when I was growing up but Milwaukee shares a gang culture with Chicago and is very poor so it's somewhat similar to that as well as Detroit with its massive white flight during the 60s/70s. It's a much larger city with a lot bigger problems than rural Arkansas. Out here it is completely different and it's less a crime issue(there is an element of that but there aren't really ghettos or street gangs like the way they are back east. I don't have an issue with Mexican people, I think it's a rich and fascinating culture that has a lot qualities about them that are better than my own race. I would say the Mexicans tend to take care their own, you do see too many homeless Mexicans but rather mostly whites and blacks.

It's a resource issue tho, simply put we can't have a social safety net and open borders. I feel somewhat obliged to take care of the people from THIS country rather than folks came here illegally, it's just the reality that we can't let in everybody or else we won't have a country. It can't work and it has been a strain on every state's social services for a long time now, the schools in Arizona have such a terrible reputation mostly because I think like a third of the students of more are ESL which is essentially a learning disability and many actually do have learning disabilities on top of that.

Trump didn't say all Mexicans are murderers or rapists, he didn't even say all illegal immigrants but the truth is that is a criminal element and maybe that's see where you from. Here in Arizona is where these cartels actually operate, they have presence in the mountains all over southern Arizona because that is their smuggling route. We don't see the violence of say El Paso/Juarez thankfully any cartel is bad enough. Now I believe in legalizing all drugs and securing our border so we can put these criminals who kill so many in Mexico out of business forever. I see that as helping Mexico, I think Trump would be a great thing for Mexico because their corrupt government need to get their **** together and start taking care of their people.

Hillary is making all types of ridiculous promises to try to appeal to Bernie supporters but I think most can see her inauthenticity in her pandering. Hillary has however staked out an immigration policy that's endorsed by La Raza and is the most extreme anti-gun candidate to ever be a nominee of a major party. You just can't make an argument that Hillary is the better candidate because she's not. Are you so afraid of Trump that you want to cling to establishment and status quo? Trump is the hope and change candidate in this election like it or not, Trump has a message and Hillary doesn't. Why is Hillary running to be president? I'm sure she's rehearsed that question a billion times. She wants a no fly zone over Syria and Iraq, how does that work without starting a war with Iran and Russia and probably Iraq too? How is that realistic? She wants to practice brinkmanship with Russia which I have ZERO interest in doing as we NEED Russia's cooperation if this war on terror is ever to be won and there really is no reason for the US and Russia not to be allies. Neither of us are perfect but we should have working relationship and I believed the world would be a safer place because of it. Remember that Russia and the US have probably at least 80% of the active nuclear warheads in the world so it really behooves us to improve relations. Trump said he'd go meet with Kim Jong-Un, I believe in Trump's abilities as diplomat and he's the only one with the guts to actually even suggest.

I like Trump for trade, I think most people do and tired of these 'free trade deals' that only ship American jobs overseas. He'll make our country rich, he'll protect our industry, and he'll protect our jobs. I think tariffs are great way of raising revenue and leveling the playing field with these slave pen countries that the American worker should not have to compete with. That is literally a race to the bottom and it does benefit us one bit, there is no magic new green economy to replace these jobs so we have to bring them back. Hillary said it herself, she wants to put the coal industry out of business and that employs a lot of people in those states she needs win. I would like the United States to become a lot more self-sufficient on all fronts because I do think we live on a unstable planet so we have to protect ourselves. The status quo cannot hold, it's just delaying the inevitable as there has to radical revolutionary change to take us off our current path. Leftist should support Trump on trade, I do not understand, perhaps union members should start thinking about who is really their friend here. The GOP already wins like 40% of the union household vote so what will Trump get? I think he might win it.

Well, did the Posse Comitatus in Wisconsin ever kill anyone? Did they ever commit robberies? Did any of them ever get their son and wife killed in an armed standoff with law enforcement? Because they had done all those things here. And it's not a matter of wanting or not wanting to associate with them, as they made it pretty much impossible to avoid them for long. The Aryan Nations got parade permits to march down the streets of Coeur D'ALene, Idaho - and lapped up all the boos and hisses by the good people of that city whom the Aryans had besmirched. In downtown Spokane's Riverfront Park, the city's first black mayor, in the spirit of fairness, had let those idiots demonstrate - and that was where Robert Mathews, leader of the Order, had first garnered attention, before leading his group on a robbery and murder spree, ending in his death at the hands of law enforcement. During an Aryan Nations skinhead rally, one of those fanatics, while stopping off in Spokane, had shot an interracial couple. In my old neighborhood, the Phineas Brotherhood had robbed a bank. The Aryan Nations had planted a bomb in the home of an Idaho minister who had dedicated his life to fighting racism - luckily, the bomb didn't go off, but neither were the Aryan Nations successfully prosecuted in court for that, or for taking stolen money from the Order's robberies. During the MLK Day parade in downtown Spokane, one of those flippin' nutcases had set a bomb to explode on the parade route, but the device was luckily discovered in time, and said flippin' nutcase successfully sent to prison. An African immigrant in portland had been literally stomped to death by skinheads, who were tied to White Aryan Resistance, or WAR. They poured into my neck of the woods because they believed they could make the Pacific Northwest a white Aryan homeland - sure, it was an insane idea by insane people, but because they believed that goal was possible, which was why they were so visible and active. The fact is, there was no getting away from them for the longest time. They had stirred up such an air of hostility that inevitably, the feds overreacted with a racist loser named Randy Weaver, who they had tried to compromise with a gun charge into turning informant. Because the feds or media never sought to verify that that little sh*t Weaver was ever in special forces like he claimed (he never was, he was just a lying little nothing, married to a crazy wife who thought they'd be safe in the mountains in the west come the Apocalypse), the federal agents tragically overreacted, resulting in deaths. People will say we could have just ignored them all, that being crazy isn't a crime. No, but as I said, they made it impossible to ignore them as nowhere else, and the crimes they committed to usher in their racist utopia certainly were illegal.

I can give you the quick story on the Marshalese. You won't like it.

After WWII the US took over the islands and blew most of them up doing nuclear tests. In exchange for blowing up their islands, the US signed a treaty of Free Association with the Marshalese people. In effect, it gives them dual citizenship and allows them to live in the US if they want.

Meanwhile, in the early 90s, Tyson Foods has this huge expansion (pretty sure they are the biggest meat company in the world now). They couldn't keep their production jobs filled--I'm talking about the nasty slaughter house jobs. So, they make a deal with the Marshalese government and begin bringing them in as guest workers...

Today that's where most of the Marshalese and Hispanic workers work--for Tyson doing the jobs that deal with blood, guts, and s**t. Most make between $10-$12/hr.

You can say that they are taking American jobs and driving wages down, but the truth is, Tyson really could not get anybody to do those jobs. And, by importing workers, they did keep and bunch of good jobs here. For every 4 unskilled immigrnt job there's a skilled support job--electrician, machinist, refer tech, etc. those jobs pay $50,000-$75,000/year. Then there's all the corporate support jobs that stayed here--accountants, lawyers, salesman, etc.

Right now, we have a 4.6% jobless rate (pretty much full employment). So, I'd say immagration has helped more than it's hurt us here. Things aren't perfect. There is still too much poverty. But things could be much worse.

Last edited by GoonSquad on 22 May 2016, 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Posse Comitatus was kind of a precursor to those movements, it's still around I think I dunno but it was active in a number of areas in the 70s/80s. Some were indeed murderers, robbers, and everything you described.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Com ... activities

I'm not going to argue about Ruby Ridge again, we've had this discussion too many times. What the government did there was wrong and I'll leave it at that.

But did they make themselves so inescapably visible? Were their activities happening one after another? Did they create that air of hostility in Wisconsin, as those racist goons did here?

How hard is it for a local to get one of those Tyson Food jobs if they want one? A lot of companies make it almost impossible for Americans to get these jobs and the working they have these people in are inhumane to say the least. Does Tyson house these people? I think I remember I Mizzlizard(hopefully that's right, I think she's from Arkansas) mentioning Tyson as being really exploitative and housing their workers in basically squalor. $10-12 an hour probably isn't too bad for rural Arkansas tho, you say there is almost full employment there(You're not stating the national figure are? We both know that's bogus right?) but poverty is still widespread? Rural poverty and urban poverty are really two different things, a lot people choose to live that to life so they can live where they want to live versus going to the job in the big city. I've moved around since leaving my hometown and have been in some fairly poor rural areas and none of them are really places I'd be afraid of walking around at night, if I was born there and I wanted to stay then there really isn't a lot of opportunity and that's true for a lot of the far flung places in this country. The problem is that these companies basically lie and do everything possible to not hire American workers so they can import foreign ones which even if they pay them an semi-ok wage are severely restricted and basically under the control of their employer. That's with these visas, now these Marshall Islanders I guess are American citizens so they'd be entitled to work and live wherever they want I presume. I don't really care about letting in too many people from the Marshall Islands, I guess we did nuke them but there can't be that many as opposed to a 100 mil+ south of our border which is why the concentration in rural Arkansas is so weird to me, I really don't know if there any other communities like that in the US. I have no exposure to them so I can't comment beyond that, an odd community I imagine.

I lived in the farmland out for a little time as well I saw the illegals working the fields every day, the dairy company had a real messed up set up with like trailers behind barbed wire fences where they housed their workers. They grow a lot of cotton out here altho those weren't the exact fields where I passed everyday(they grew mostly cantaloupes I think, a lot of ragweed around) and it's impossible not to imagine yourself in slave times. It is desert out here and the sun can be oppressive even in the middle of winter if out in it with no shade, they're just bending pull weeds out a lot of the time it seems like. From what I heard they get $50 for a 12 hour shift, they don't work as long in the middle of the summer since that would probably kill people having to work in 110 degree weather. Get done around noon then. I think it's exploitation, I'd pay more for cantaloupes, I don't care.

I don't know about those poor white people, but I get a bit surly when people less informed than I am try and tell me what my interests really are, kinda makes me want to do things just to spite them.

Okay... A few things. There are about half a million people living here. Last I checked, that put us in or near the top 100 metro areas in the country. It ain't New York, but it ain't Mayberry either. It's fairly urban...

Like I said before, there's a chronic labor shortage here. Tyson couldn't afford not to hire people... The problem is, nobody wants to work in meat packing for $12/hr when you can make $10/ at Taco bell...

Most manufacturing here has to do with meat processing and frozen food. When I first moved into the area, I worked as an automation tech for a company that makes frozen dinners. I made really good money and my only complaint was that I worked way too much. I literally could not get a day off. It's one of the reasons that I quit and went back to school.

Now, in that company, most of the production jobs were done by Americans because they weren't all that bad or unpleasant--mostly just kinda boring. However, every night they have to break down all the equipment, wash and sanitize it, and put it back together...

Those clean-up jobs VERY hard and unpleasant and the crews are pretty much all Marshallese and Hispanic. Around here, they really are doing jobs Americans don't want to do.

As far as wages go, a single person could do okay on $10-$12/hr here--would be tougher for a family obviously. As far as poverty rates go, I think the national rate is still around 12%. The local rate is about 18%. That's isn't really all that high for the region. The rate of child poverty is about 28%. That's appalling, but again, it is not really high for the region.

As far as actual living conditions go, as I said before, most of my neighbors are immigrant workers... They certainly aren't rich, but they are not starving either.

My next door neighbors are Marshallese. Pretty sure both parents work at the Tyson plant just a few blocks away. They have 6 kids (in a two bedroom house). 4 of the kids are old enough to drive, and they all have their own cars... They're definitely poor, but not suffering. The oldest daughter just went away to college.



Yeah, I've seen a lot of stuff like this in Georgia and SC around onion and tobacco country.

That's not what's happening around here.

You live in an interesting area, would you agree that it is not typical? I just assumed Ozarks and northern Arkansas were rural; didn't realize that was where Tyson, Walmart, JB Hunt were located which probably explains the explosive growth in the region. When I thought Arkansas, I thought Little Rock and like along the Mississippi so my mistake on that. It's still not a yuuge metropolitan area like I am use too but pretty big.

Now are these workers here on work visas or what? How much illegal immigration has there been to the area? You said these Marshallese are American citizens so they're free to go and work somewhere else?(Not true for visa workers) Also, can an American get one of those dirty jobs if they wanted it? Buzzfeed(of all places) had a really good article about the lengths some companies will go to not hire American workers so I hope that isn't going on.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicagarriso ... -are-fired

There are a lot of illegals here, some work down in the fields but most don't. End up taking a lot of general labor jobs as well some more skilled labor as well, the dairy companies are really really bad with illegals and this was even true in Wisconsin believe it or not. Big strain on social services, big strain on the schools, it could be a lot worse here but ussually illegals don't want to stick around here too long.

Well, two of the richest families in American live here. So, that's a bit different. Also, the Hispanic population is large, but relatively new. The community is about 25 years old--mostly first and second generation.

Poverty is higher than average, but typical for the south. There's always a labor shortage, so unemployment is low. There's very little crime and race relations are actually pretty good.

This is one reason why I have a problem with Trump. Immigrants don't really cause problems. The problems and poor race relations seem to come from well established communities of color that have suffered from poverty and discrimination for several generations.

That's not the case here. Also, immigrant families are very strong. There's a city park just a block or two from my house. On any given evening, if the weather is nice, it will be packed with Marshallese and Hispanic families cooking food and socializing together.


As far as the Marshallese are concerned, they fall under this treaty of Free Association and they can do whatever they want. The reason they stay here is because jobs are easy to get and they have an established community here.

As far as the legal status of the Hispanics is concerned, I don't know... They're either legal, or they have fake papers, because Tyson, the company I used to work for, and other industrial employers won't hire them without an SSN/Tax ID.

A lot of my Hispanic neighbors are from El Salvador (they don't like to be called Mexican!). My guess is that many of them are legal refugees.

Like I said before, as long as I've lived here, there's been a labor shortage (even after the crash). There's a small poultry processor with an employment center around the corner. Right now, they're advertising a $500 sign on bonus for production jobs. I guarantee, they will hire anybody who can pass the drug test right now.



Well, around here, the immigrants are all working industrial jobs. Agri-jobs are different and usually a lot worse/more exploitive.
I've known farmers who considered the county welfare office to be their HR Benefits office. They actually have their wives take their employees down and help them sign up for SNAP and whatever else they could get...

I'm sure that some of the immigrants around here get SNAP benefits etc., but like I said before, when I worked at the Homeless/poverty nonprofit, the vast majority of our clients were white.

As far as skilled labor jobs go, there are a lot more Hispanic contractors around these days. And you hear some people complaining that they are driving down wages there. But that's the free market. The American contractors sure didn't mind when the Hispanics were just cheap labor.

Last edited by GoonSquad on 24 May 2016, 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Where Goonsquad lives is growing,and fast!A major art museum in the area also,Crystal Bridges.
My son was born at the hospital in Springdale,at that time there were no Hispanics.Then pow,there was.Like he said,they do the jobs no one wants.Like the line at Tysons where you suck the guts out of the chickens.Where I saw the illegals being treated bad was Carroll county where the chicken houses are.Tyson doesn't have much say who the chicken farmer hires.
Where I live there is more poverty and its around 99% white.Most money is from tourism,the Buffalo National River.
It's considered a "bedroom" county,everyone that wants a good paying job drives at least an hour to get there in another county.No body moves here looking for a job.Lots of retired people move here.
A good read on the state.
https://www.uaex.edu/publications/pdf/MP-531.pdf