Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
BettaPonic wrote:
ltcvnzl wrote:
This concept of free person seems quite weird for me. are we really free? (ok maybe it's probably a north american thing so probably it wouldn't fit me as i'm not american but even americans, do you really believe in your freedom?)
In west we still have tons of problems. I think we should care about it previously than trying to discuss problem's in different cultures. Not because I believe we can't judge other cultures (we can) but because I think it's way more complex, so if we don't do our homework being critical to our own context, it's impossible to have an accurate view on something more distant and complex.
Although many woman in muslim societies are under heavy oppression I doubt to consider it was an inherently or exclusive muslim trait: this patterns repeat itself through most of cultures (even if in different intensities and in different times). So how and from what exactly are we freeing this woman?
Also, I don't believe in top to bottom actions as effective. You can just go and free some people. It takes a lot more than this, and it can be really free if the person isn't involved in this freeing. Anyway, It's obviously a very complicated matter and I don't hope to have any answer for it, just a bunch of random impression.
In west we still have tons of problems. I think we should care about it previously than trying to discuss problem's in different cultures. Not because I believe we can't judge other cultures (we can) but because I think it's way more complex, so if we don't do our homework being critical to our own context, it's impossible to have an accurate view on something more distant and complex.
Although many woman in muslim societies are under heavy oppression I doubt to consider it was an inherently or exclusive muslim trait: this patterns repeat itself through most of cultures (even if in different intensities and in different times). So how and from what exactly are we freeing this woman?
Also, I don't believe in top to bottom actions as effective. You can just go and free some people. It takes a lot more than this, and it can be really free if the person isn't involved in this freeing. Anyway, It's obviously a very complicated matter and I don't hope to have any answer for it, just a bunch of random impression.
I say if someone else frees someone they are free. Of you give control to them they can take that control and make their own desicions. I think the first steps are simple allowing women to drive, vote, and get education. That will in my opinion give a women the ability to choose for herself. They should learn they are just as good as any man.
It isn't that simple. I believe woman should be allowed to drive, vote and get education... but how – as foreigners – can we change the laws of a country without disrespecting its sovereignty? How can we be sure that this influence won't affect another fields, in a not so positive light? Where we draw this line of influence? It isn't just allowing woman to do things, it needs to change much more deep roots that will cause a lot of instability for their society.
I believe we should act somehow that empowers this woman but we can't patronize them with this discourse we – the free people – are here free you. In our definition of freedom, in our cultural term. It isn't really freedom. And I say again: we aren't exactly free.
Jacoby
Veteran
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,284
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash
Jacoby wrote:
Yo El wrote:
The irony is that Saudi Arabia was re-elected to the U.N Human Right Council back in 2016.
That right there is proof positive that the U.N. is a total joke, we should not empower or give a platform to these tin-pot dictators.
I heard that the reason Saudi Arabia won is because they had no competition.
ltcvnzl wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
ltcvnzl wrote:
This concept of free person seems quite weird for me. are we really free? (ok maybe it's probably a north american thing so probably it wouldn't fit me as i'm not american but even americans, do you really believe in your freedom?)
In west we still have tons of problems. I think we should care about it previously than trying to discuss problem's in different cultures. Not because I believe we can't judge other cultures (we can) but because I think it's way more complex, so if we don't do our homework being critical to our own context, it's impossible to have an accurate view on something more distant and complex.
Although many woman in muslim societies are under heavy oppression I doubt to consider it was an inherently or exclusive muslim trait: this patterns repeat itself through most of cultures (even if in different intensities and in different times). So how and from what exactly are we freeing this woman?
Also, I don't believe in top to bottom actions as effective. You can just go and free some people. It takes a lot more than this, and it can be really free if the person isn't involved in this freeing. Anyway, It's obviously a very complicated matter and I don't hope to have any answer for it, just a bunch of random impression.
In west we still have tons of problems. I think we should care about it previously than trying to discuss problem's in different cultures. Not because I believe we can't judge other cultures (we can) but because I think it's way more complex, so if we don't do our homework being critical to our own context, it's impossible to have an accurate view on something more distant and complex.
Although many woman in muslim societies are under heavy oppression I doubt to consider it was an inherently or exclusive muslim trait: this patterns repeat itself through most of cultures (even if in different intensities and in different times). So how and from what exactly are we freeing this woman?
Also, I don't believe in top to bottom actions as effective. You can just go and free some people. It takes a lot more than this, and it can be really free if the person isn't involved in this freeing. Anyway, It's obviously a very complicated matter and I don't hope to have any answer for it, just a bunch of random impression.
I say if someone else frees someone they are free. Of you give control to them they can take that control and make their own desicions. I think the first steps are simple allowing women to drive, vote, and get education. That will in my opinion give a women the ability to choose for herself. They should learn they are just as good as any man.
It isn't that simple. I believe woman should be allowed to drive, vote and get education... but how – as foreigners – can we change the laws of a country without disrespecting its sovereignty? How can we be sure that this influence won't affect another fields, in a not so positive light? Where we draw this line of influence? It isn't just allowing woman to do things, it needs to change much more deep roots that will cause a lot of instability for their society.
I believe we should act somehow that empowers this woman but we can't patronize them with this discourse we – the free people – are here free you. In our definition of freedom, in our cultural term. It isn't really freedom. And I say again: we aren't exactly free.
I think we can export ideas instead of people. We can allow people from these countries especially young people on visits to the United States. For example we can allow young people from Saudi Arabia to study here. They can take some of the ideas back to there countries.
BettaPonic wrote:
I think we can export ideas instead of people. We can allow people from these countries especially young people on visits to the United States. For example we can allow young people from Saudi Arabia to study here. They can take some of the ideas back to there countries.
They would get cruel punishments if they did.
Yo El wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
I think we can export ideas instead of people. We can allow people from these countries especially young people on visits to the United States. For example we can allow young people from Saudi Arabia to study here. They can take some of the ideas back to there countries.
They would get cruel punishments if they did.I hate to admit it, but you are right. Big movements often involve sufferings.
BettaPonic wrote:
ltcvnzl wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
ltcvnzl wrote:
This concept of free person seems quite weird for me. are we really free? (ok maybe it's probably a north american thing so probably it wouldn't fit me as i'm not american but even americans, do you really believe in your freedom?)
In west we still have tons of problems. I think we should care about it previously than trying to discuss problem's in different cultures. Not because I believe we can't judge other cultures (we can) but because I think it's way more complex, so if we don't do our homework being critical to our own context, it's impossible to have an accurate view on something more distant and complex.
Although many woman in muslim societies are under heavy oppression I doubt to consider it was an inherently or exclusive muslim trait: this patterns repeat itself through most of cultures (even if in different intensities and in different times). So how and from what exactly are we freeing this woman?
Also, I don't believe in top to bottom actions as effective. You can just go and free some people. It takes a lot more than this, and it can be really free if the person isn't involved in this freeing. Anyway, It's obviously a very complicated matter and I don't hope to have any answer for it, just a bunch of random impression.
In west we still have tons of problems. I think we should care about it previously than trying to discuss problem's in different cultures. Not because I believe we can't judge other cultures (we can) but because I think it's way more complex, so if we don't do our homework being critical to our own context, it's impossible to have an accurate view on something more distant and complex.
Although many woman in muslim societies are under heavy oppression I doubt to consider it was an inherently or exclusive muslim trait: this patterns repeat itself through most of cultures (even if in different intensities and in different times). So how and from what exactly are we freeing this woman?
Also, I don't believe in top to bottom actions as effective. You can just go and free some people. It takes a lot more than this, and it can be really free if the person isn't involved in this freeing. Anyway, It's obviously a very complicated matter and I don't hope to have any answer for it, just a bunch of random impression.
I say if someone else frees someone they are free. Of you give control to them they can take that control and make their own desicions. I think the first steps are simple allowing women to drive, vote, and get education. That will in my opinion give a women the ability to choose for herself. They should learn they are just as good as any man.
It isn't that simple. I believe woman should be allowed to drive, vote and get education... but how – as foreigners – can we change the laws of a country without disrespecting its sovereignty? How can we be sure that this influence won't affect another fields, in a not so positive light? Where we draw this line of influence? It isn't just allowing woman to do things, it needs to change much more deep roots that will cause a lot of instability for their society.
I believe we should act somehow that empowers this woman but we can't patronize them with this discourse we – the free people – are here free you. In our definition of freedom, in our cultural term. It isn't really freedom. And I say again: we aren't exactly free.
I think we can export ideas instead of people. We can allow people from these countries especially young people on visits to the United States. For example we can allow young people from Saudi Arabia to study here. They can take some of the ideas back to there countries.
This is a real good idea. If you lead the action to the local people they can filter better what work or not for them. What I disagree is direct action controlled by outsiders.
ltcvnzl wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
ltcvnzl wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
ltcvnzl wrote:
This concept of free person seems quite weird for me. are we really free? (ok maybe it's probably a north american thing so probably it wouldn't fit me as i'm not american but even americans, do you really believe in your freedom?)
In west we still have tons of problems. I think we should care about it previously than trying to discuss problem's in different cultures. Not because I believe we can't judge other cultures (we can) but because I think it's way more complex, so if we don't do our homework being critical to our own context, it's impossible to have an accurate view on something more distant and complex.
Although many woman in muslim societies are under heavy oppression I doubt to consider it was an inherently or exclusive muslim trait: this patterns repeat itself through most of cultures (even if in different intensities and in different times). So how and from what exactly are we freeing this woman?
Also, I don't believe in top to bottom actions as effective. You can just go and free some people. It takes a lot more than this, and it can be really free if the person isn't involved in this freeing. Anyway, It's obviously a very complicated matter and I don't hope to have any answer for it, just a bunch of random impression.
In west we still have tons of problems. I think we should care about it previously than trying to discuss problem's in different cultures. Not because I believe we can't judge other cultures (we can) but because I think it's way more complex, so if we don't do our homework being critical to our own context, it's impossible to have an accurate view on something more distant and complex.
Although many woman in muslim societies are under heavy oppression I doubt to consider it was an inherently or exclusive muslim trait: this patterns repeat itself through most of cultures (even if in different intensities and in different times). So how and from what exactly are we freeing this woman?
Also, I don't believe in top to bottom actions as effective. You can just go and free some people. It takes a lot more than this, and it can be really free if the person isn't involved in this freeing. Anyway, It's obviously a very complicated matter and I don't hope to have any answer for it, just a bunch of random impression.
I say if someone else frees someone they are free. Of you give control to them they can take that control and make their own desicions. I think the first steps are simple allowing women to drive, vote, and get education. That will in my opinion give a women the ability to choose for herself. They should learn they are just as good as any man.
It isn't that simple. I believe woman should be allowed to drive, vote and get education... but how – as foreigners – can we change the laws of a country without disrespecting its sovereignty? How can we be sure that this influence won't affect another fields, in a not so positive light? Where we draw this line of influence? It isn't just allowing woman to do things, it needs to change much more deep roots that will cause a lot of instability for their society.
I believe we should act somehow that empowers this woman but we can't patronize them with this discourse we – the free people – are here free you. In our definition of freedom, in our cultural term. It isn't really freedom. And I say again: we aren't exactly free.
I think we can export ideas instead of people. We can allow people from these countries especially young people on visits to the United States. For example we can allow young people from Saudi Arabia to study here. They can take some of the ideas back to there countries.
This is a real good idea. If you lead the action to the local people they can filter better what work or not for them. What I disagree is direct action controlled by outsiders.
That is what I like about my plan. People expand their knowledge of the world. The idas we have can go to them and other countries.
jrjones9933 wrote:
Citing the text of the First Amendment is good, but none of it applies simply and literally. There's a lot of case law, and in some cases, different Circuit courts have different positions on it. In your comments, you sort of understand what's going on, and I want to encourage that. Getting lectured on a subject by someone who doesn't understand the complexity of the topic will never go over well.
Look I don't think Yo El was saying something uninformed. Mike Huckabee said a similar thing in that abortion violated the 15th amendment. It is just how you interpret things. But heck I am 16 so maybe I don't know.
The_Face_of_Boo
Veteran
Joined: 16 Jun 2010
Age: 42
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 33,051
Location: Beirut, Lebanon.
GnosticBishop wrote:
Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?
In the more right wing of Islam, females are what I would call slaves. I am prompted to think in that term because if I were a Muslim man living under Sharia, I can buy myself a few child brides. There is also little stopping me from doing the same, --- where Muslims live under Sharia law, --- in new adopted countries in the free world. Slavery returns to the West.
Fraternité, if I may remind the English speakers, means a fiduciary relationship to all other people. Slave is appropriate here. Fraternité and honesty also forces that I must look at Muslim females as slaves.
Do I, as a free man, have any responsibility to free these Muslim women, who inadvertently help propagate slavery by their lack of revolt against it?
The West also helps propagate slavery by allowing it into the West.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtY5bv-oxLE
If I, as a free man hold a responsibility, as a free person, do you?
How much tolerance should tolerant nations give to a huge slave trading religion and government system?
Regards
DL
In the more right wing of Islam, females are what I would call slaves. I am prompted to think in that term because if I were a Muslim man living under Sharia, I can buy myself a few child brides. There is also little stopping me from doing the same, --- where Muslims live under Sharia law, --- in new adopted countries in the free world. Slavery returns to the West.
Fraternité, if I may remind the English speakers, means a fiduciary relationship to all other people. Slave is appropriate here. Fraternité and honesty also forces that I must look at Muslim females as slaves.
Do I, as a free man, have any responsibility to free these Muslim women, who inadvertently help propagate slavery by their lack of revolt against it?
The West also helps propagate slavery by allowing it into the West.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtY5bv-oxLE
If I, as a free man hold a responsibility, as a free person, do you?
How much tolerance should tolerant nations give to a huge slave trading religion and government system?
Regards
DL
Yes, for the Muslim women living under the real Sharia like KSA and Afghanistan, they are slaves even against their will.
But here the thing:
Most Muslims live in denial, and most Muslims living in non-Sharia countries (hint: most muslim-dominated countries) believe in an embellished version of Islam. In particular most Muslim women believe in a very very embellished version of Islam while they they ignore or turn a blind eye on the verses that clearly diminish their status, maybe they only read embellished narratives and never read the Qur'an fully. The Arabic dialect of Qur'an is an old tribe-specific, and it's not exactly the same as the Classic Arabic, it's somehow like Old English to modern English - I would understand it better if I read its English or French translation than in its original language.
For example, the other day I was in an outing with classmates, and one of my christian classmates mentioned the polygamy in Islam, a muslim classmate, who is a Muslim young woman (not veiled and wears short skirts too which isn't uncommon here) answered by repeating a popular verse's interpretation how no ordinary man's love can be perfectly equal between two women, therefore he's not deemed for marrying more than one. In other term, she believes that Allah allows only monogamy for non-prophet men.
This is an extremely popular narrative I've heard from moderate and even conservative Muslim women who reject, despise and even mock the idea of polygamy hence why the concept is not popular in many muslim places except in the Arabia. (Less than 1% of Muslims in the world practice Polygamy, according to stats, at least it's the figure for the registered marriages)
In fact, women in these countries, like in Christian countries, are more likely to be more religious than men; and for some reason less likely to be agnostic/atheists (this is a world phenomena).
So no, these are not slaves, they just don't believe in the real Islam though like most Muslim men. They live on the blue pill.
BettaPonic wrote:
I think we can export ideas instead of people. We can allow people from these countries especially young people on visits to the United States. For example we can allow young people from Saudi Arabia to study here. They can take some of the ideas back to there countries.
The US exports its ideas and culture, along with those cultural elements and ideas it has adopted from other countries and peoples, on levels unmatched by any other nation, in the form of TV, movies, books, music, etc. They've already moved the mountain to Mohammed, so to speak.
adifferentname wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
I think we can export ideas instead of people. We can allow people from these countries especially young people on visits to the United States. For example we can allow young people from Saudi Arabia to study here. They can take some of the ideas back to there countries.
The US exports its ideas and culture, along with those cultural elements and ideas it has adopted from other countries and peoples, on levels unmatched by any other nation, in the form of TV, movies, books, music, etc. They've already moved the mountain to Mohammed, so to speak.
How much access do you feel the Middle East has to become those?
adifferentname wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
I think we can export ideas instead of people. We can allow people from these countries especially young people on visits to the United States. For example we can allow young people from Saudi Arabia to study here. They can take some of the ideas back to there countries.
The US exports its ideas and culture, along with those cultural elements and ideas it has adopted from other countries and peoples, on levels unmatched by any other nation, in the form of TV, movies, books, music, etc. They've already moved the mountain to Mohammed, so to speak.
Yes but there are also nations where they 'protect' their citizens from such things. North Korea for example, are there internet restrictions in Saudi Arabia?
BettaPonic wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
BettaPonic wrote:
I think we can export ideas instead of people. We can allow people from these countries especially young people on visits to the United States. For example we can allow young people from Saudi Arabia to study here. They can take some of the ideas back to there countries.
The US exports its ideas and culture, along with those cultural elements and ideas it has adopted from other countries and peoples, on levels unmatched by any other nation, in the form of TV, movies, books, music, etc. They've already moved the mountain to Mohammed, so to speak.
How much access do you feel the Middle East has to become those?
If you mean how much access do they have to US media and culture, enough to know that it might be preferable to their own. The huge numbers of economic migrants to the West is sufficient evidence of that.
Not sure "slave" is a useful term, but people and particularly women in lots of highly theocratic Islamic societies are severely oppressed; describing them as "not slaves" would be damning with faint praise. The vast majority of Muslim women in non-Muslim countries, or more liberal Islamic countries, no, they're not remotely slavery.
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