What's wrong with civic nationalism ?
Sweetleaf
Veteran
![User avatar](./download/file.php?avatar=44416_1624765443.jpg)
Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 34,987
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
rvacountrysinger wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
rvacountrysinger wrote:
God Bless America. We are a Christian nation! God bless the Founding Fathers of our Constitution. They knew what they wanted. Thomas Jefferson didn't want Islam in America either. He fought the Barbary Pirates for good reason. And for a "diest" he certainly liked the Bible enough, considering he had it translated in 6 different languages at Monticello.
I think you are forgetting something
AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Therefore it is not a Christian nation...if you want a theocracy you should probably convert to Islam and go join up with ISIS, as that is their goal.
You can be a Christian nation without being a theocracy.
How so? This is a freedom of religoin country....deal with it.
_________________
We won't go back.
Mikah wrote:
America at its founding certainly was a Christian nation, ruled by a carefully crafted, explicitly secular state, the original American nation-state. Even now though it would be perfectly reasonable to say the state is Christian in nature if not letter, being as so many of its laws had origins in English law and Christian thinking, though that is becoming less true as politics and lawmaking catch up with changing demographics.
American democracy was inspired by the 18th century liberal enlightenment, which was largely secular.
What part of the Bible promotes democracy?
I have actually read the Bible. There are plenty of Bible verses that glorify kings. There aren't many Bible verses that promote representative democracy.
Modern liberal democracy was invented by deist philosophers and was later adopted by Protestants. People often claim that Protestants invented democracy, but I see no evidence for this.
Another Thing: Politics and lawmaking aren't catching up to changing demographics because American democracy dissolved into plutocracy a long time ago. In other words, you don't need to be afraid of those crazy immigrants who vote Democrat. The Democratic Party, much like the Republican Party, is currently under corporate control anyway.
That's why "illegal immigrant voters" are not a big deal. They aren't a big deal because your vote doesn't count anyway.
_________________
Synthetic carbo-polymers got em through man. They got em through mouse. They got through, and we're gonna get out.
-Roostre
READ THIS -> https://represent.us/
I was writing a fairly long post explaining the origins of various American political ideas and that most of them predate the enlightenment. Also, that the enlightenment itself was a Christian phenomenon, the culmination of Christian thinking, history and lived experience, not a secular lightning bolt sent by Atheist Jesus to guide Christians out of barbarism.
But then I read this again:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
What part of the Bible promotes democracy?
I have actually read the Bible. There are plenty of Bible verses that glorify kings. There aren't many Bible verses that promote representative democracy.
I have actually read the Bible. There are plenty of Bible verses that glorify kings. There aren't many Bible verses that promote representative democracy.
And I realised it was a pointless exercise. Apparently in DarthMetaKnight world if an idea is not in the Bible, it cannot have Christian origins.
I guess if you care enough to have this conversation I would have to go much deeper and convince you that a religious world view has striking effects on your view of yourself, your place in the universe, the place of your fellow man... indeed of all mankind. Which, in turn, has far reaching effects on the way our societies have evolved over time, affecting not just the thoughts of those who had a hand in designing our societies but also the thoughts of the average citizen or subject living in those societies, their interactions with the state and each other. Another time perhaps, I am exhausted.
_________________
Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
Mikah wrote:
I was writing a fairly long post explaining the origins of various American political ideas and that most of them predate the enlightenment. Also, that the enlightenment itself was a Christian phenomenon, the culmination of Christian thinking, history and lived experience, not a secular lightning bolt sent by Atheist Jesus to guide Christians out of barbarism....
The (French) Enlightenment gets way too much credit I think when people talk about the origin of American political thought (and Anglosphere thought generally). American ideals of liberty come much more foundationally from the English Civil War, a.k.a. the Puritan Revolution. The Puritan Revolution was the first attempt to create a constitutional republic in the English-speaking world, and it succeeded for a few years, only to collapse with restoration of the monarchy. But in a sense, in the American colonies there was de facto not much of a restoration -- they continued to think of themselves as more or less independent republics from that point on.
The American Revolution was the second English Civil War, and this time it stuck thanks to Washington, who did not suffer from Cromwell's dictatorial tendencies (among other things). It was from the various branches of Puritanism that most American ideas of a written constitution, separation of church and state, religious liberty, freedom of conscience, property rights, enlargement of the voting franchise, and so on, were derived.
_________________
There Are Four Lights!
rvacountrysinger wrote:
I consider myself a civic nationalist, and already people are calling me "fascist", for echoing those sentiments. But I will tell you, that its not the same. And people are wrong to equate simply being "alt right" with fascism either. They obviously know little about it ,and its painfully obvious they get their info from The Atlantic or Mother Jones or Huffington Post.. Oy Vey! A civic nationalist is one who has national pride: loves their country and traditions, and wants them to remain in tact. Someone who doesn't support "multiculturalism" or mass immigration. One who believes in homogenization . The way America has always been- a melting pot. Multiculturalism does not work. All one must do is look at Paris, France- or any city in Germany for that matter, to see what is happening multi cultural Marxism. I believe in Western values and that the West is the best! If you want to come over here, leave your old ways behind and become an American. That is all we ask. What is wrong with that? I don't care so much about race, I care about culture and I don't want The US to become Middle East Part II !
When I was the PIO for my county's Office of the Clerk (overseeing elections, marriages and passports), I would set up a voter-registration kiosk at events where immigrants would become U.S. citizens. Even the immigrants would describe to me how they (the first generation of Americans in their families) would continue their cultural traditions while attempting to learn and perform their new American traditions. Their children were often old enough to explain to me that they (the second generation) lived a life of combined traditions which they supported equally. Several of the second generation described how their children (the third generation) were totally American, and didn't care much for traditions other than their own American culture.
So, there isn't a need to worry about American traditions. In each successive generation, the arc of immigration bends toward local traditions.
_________________
Diagnosed in 2015 with ASD Level 1 by the University of Utah Health Care Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinic using the ADOS-2 Module 4 assessment instrument [11/30] -- Screened in 2014 with ASD by using the University of Cambridge Autism Research Centre AQ (Adult) [43/50]; EQ-60 for adults [11/80]; FQ [43/135]; SQ (Adult) [130/150] self-reported screening inventories -- Assessed since 1978 with an estimated IQ [≈145] by several clinicians -- Contact on WrongPlanet.net by private message (PM)
Darmok wrote:
Mikah wrote:
I was writing a fairly long post explaining the origins of various American political ideas and that most of them predate the enlightenment. Also, that the enlightenment itself was a Christian phenomenon, the culmination of Christian thinking, history and lived experience, not a secular lightning bolt sent by Atheist Jesus to guide Christians out of barbarism....
The (French) Enlightenment gets way too much credit I think when people talk about the origin of American political thought (and Anglosphere thought generally). American ideals of liberty come much more foundationally from the English Civil War, a.k.a. the Puritan Revolution. The Puritan Revolution was the first attempt to create a constitutional republic in the English-speaking world, and it succeeded for a few years, only to collapse with restoration of the monarchy. But in a sense, in the American colonies there was de facto not much of a restoration -- they continued to think of themselves as more or less independent republics from that point on.
The American Revolution was the second English Civil War, and this time it stuck thanks to Washington, who did not suffer from Cromwell's dictatorial tendencies (among other things). It was from the various branches of Puritanism that most American ideas of a written constitution, separation of church and state, religious liberty, freedom of conscience, property rights, enlargement of the voting franchise, and so on, were derived.
Ehh yes and no. There are links between the English civil war and the American revolution. The Puritans were definitely involved in both, but political pretexts for war are often fig leaves for grander, baser, more nebulous power struggles. (A modern parallel might be calls for lowering the voting age - are these politicians doing it on principle or are they chasing other goals?)
In the English civil war its easier to see that the political restructuring of England was a fig leaf for religious power struggles, never the goal in and of itself. If the king had been different, the war might not have happened, they didn't really overthrow him on principle. I'd argue that is true too of the American revolution, which looks to be an uninspiring power grab by the greedy and the radical, an opportunity offered by the decay of imperial and cultural influence due to such vast geographic distances from the homeland. Further, the objections to British rule offered by the Declaration are so much nonsense. See this epicly long Moldbug post for an alternate take on the American "rebellion" if you have time. It's only later, as is the case in so many wars, that the victor's history reads that the eventual outcome was "the reason we did it all along".
I agree on the enlightenment not having all that much influence on much of American and English custom. I was reading this a few months ago:
The Origins of English Individualism
Which argues, contrary to the accepted wisdom about the Medieval period, England had a very strange mode of life compared to almost everywhere else in the world. The ripple effect of the Magna Carta of 1215 always seems to be forgotten in these discussions too.
Americanness and Englishness runs so much deeper than liberté, égalité, fraternité. Its ideas, customs, laws, social structures, property rights and economics originate long before the civil war, the industrial revolution, the enlightenment bloodbath and contrary to your assertion, before the Puritans. We really are descended from odd peoples.
_________________
Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!
Similar Topics | |
---|---|
Christian Nationalism=Nazism 2.0 |
14 Dec 2024, 10:28 pm |
Feel like I'm doing something wrong |
08 Jan 2025, 2:47 pm |
What am I doing wrong to explain less luck with dating? |
17 Dec 2024, 7:09 pm |
Hello from Michigan! New to Wrong Planet Forums |
02 Jan 2025, 12:07 pm |