The frustration of the right and conservatives

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22 Jan 2018, 2:46 am

^^^
The denial that racism against minorities exists, while saying laws protecting the rights of discriminated against minorities is racist, is the new racism.
If the upper class and corporations aren't selling out the average citizen for the almighty dollar, then who's cutting wages and benefits, and outsourcing jobs? Yes, class warfare is very real.

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adifferentname
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22 Jan 2018, 3:09 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

^^^
The denial that racism against minorities exists, while saying laws protecting the rights of discriminated against minorities is racist, is the new racism.

Are you giving me another stance, or was there a specific point I made that you believe constitutes "denying that racism against minorities exists"? You're coming at this from the Cathy Newman school of debate: "So you're saying that <insert strawman>". It's infantile and it serves only to demean yourself and your ideas.

Let's unpack the second part, which you're trying to tie to the strawman. You define "Affirmative Action" as a right. You therefore support racial minorities having rights that non-racial minorities aren't entitled to. That's not equality, that's racial discrimination.

Quote:

If the upper class and corporations aren't selling out the average citizen for the almighty dollar, then who's cutting wages and benefits, and outsourcing jobs? Yes, class warfare is very real.

So you'd like to shift the goalposts and talk about economic classes rather than racial classes? You could have saved us both a great deal of trouble and simply linked to The Communist Manifesto right from the start.

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22 Jan 2018, 6:13 am

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

^^^
The denial that racism against minorities exists, while saying laws protecting the rights of discriminated against minorities is racist, is the new racism.

Quote:

If the upper class and corporations aren't selling out the average citizen for the almighty dollar, then who's cutting wages and benefits, and outsourcing jobs? Yes, class warfare is very real.

If racial minorities hadn't faced a history of discrimination and lynching, you might have a point, but they clearly have. It's not a matter of giving them rights the rest of us don't have, but of moving them into a more equal status.
You still haven't given me any reason to doubt that you deny white supremacy is a problem in society.
Seriously, you don't see those with financial power the cause of the working and middle class' suffering? What, pray tell then, is the cause?

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22 Jan 2018, 8:08 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

It's not a matter of giving them rights the rest of us don't have, but of moving them into a more equal status

Moving them into an equal status could require very fine balance. How can we as a society measure their status so precisely that we can give them equal status without overshooting and giving them higher status?

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22 Jan 2018, 8:10 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

It's not a matter of giving them rights the rest of us don't have, but of moving them into a more equal status

Has that seriously happened yet?

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22 Jan 2018, 8:11 pm

Not "precisely" equal, of course.....but as close to equal as possible.

Not being able to create "absolute" equality should not be an excuse for inaction on this issue.

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22 Jan 2018, 8:49 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

Not "precisely" equal, of course.....but as close to equal as possible.

Not being able to create "absolute" equality should not be an excuse for inaction on this issue.

I wasn't suggesting inaction. I was asking how the system might be improved.

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22 Jan 2018, 9:07 pm

Not you, of course.

Frequently, I have found, in general, that people frequently demand perfection, or else nothing at all.

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23 Jan 2018, 3:25 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

If racial minorities hadn't faced a history of discrimination and lynching, you might have a point, but they clearly have.

My ancestors were raped, starved, murdered, abused, stolen from, oppressed, etc too, Bill. Should I be hunting witches as well?

Point to some individual cases of discrimination and we can deal with those. If there's an individual currently being discriminated against, I fully support them pursuing justice. What cases would you like us to consider?

Quote:

It's not a matter of giving them rights the rest of us don't have, but of moving them into a more equal status.

Yes, Bill. We already established that you're a Marxist who believes in providing equality of outcome based on immutable characteristics. Are you proposing we all emulate Venezuela?

Quote:

You still haven't given me any reason to doubt that you deny white supremacy is a problem in society.

Nor am I required to, as holding the opinion that white supremacy isn't a significant problem is neither a crime, a moral failing nor is it controversial. Quite the opposite, in fact. You're the one claiming it's a problem, so present your evidence in support of your claim.

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Seriously, you don't see those with financial power the cause of the working and middle class' suffering?

Nope. If you want to present a compelling argument as to why you believe they are, then do so.

Also, middle class suffering?

Quote:

What, pray tell then, is the cause?

Of suffering? Amongst many other causes, perspective is an important contributor. How do the working classes of America or the UK stack up against the working classes of other nations, and especially those which embrace Marxist principles?

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23 Jan 2018, 6:44 am

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

If racial minorities hadn't faced a history of discrimination and lynching, you might have a point, but they clearly have.

Quote:

It's not a matter of giving them rights the rest of us don't have, but of moving them into a more equal status.

Yes, Bill. We already established that you're a Marxist who believes in providing equality of outcome based on immutable characteristics. Are you proposing we all emulate Venezuela?

Quote:

You still haven't given me any reason to doubt that you deny white supremacy is a problem in society.

Quote:

Seriously, you don't see those with financial power the cause of the working and middle class' suffering?

Nope. If you want to present a compelling argument as to why you believe they are, then do so.

Also, middle class suffering?

Quote:

What, pray tell then, is the cause?

I suspect African Americans have experienced that oppression much closer to modern times than your people had. In fact, plenty of older blacks can still remember those bad old days.
Believe I'm a Marxist for wanting the little guy to get a fair shake, if you will. I'll wear that designation as a badge of pride.
Yes, denial of the existence of white supremacy is the whole point of your argument. The fact that you don't deny it speaks volumes.
American and British workers are losing their buying power, as well as their social mobility upward. I fail to see who would be at fault for this, save those who control the economy.

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23 Jan 2018, 7:07 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

I suspect African Americans have experienced that oppression much closer to modern times than your people had.

On what basis do you make that assumption? My skin colour?

Are you actually aware what my racial/ethnic background is?

Quote:

In fact, plenty of older blacks can still remember those bad old days.

And what distinguishes the "bad old days" from today?

Quote:

Believe I'm a Marxist for wanting the little guy to get a fair shake, if you will. I'll wear that designation as a badge of pride.

You don't want "the little guy" to get "a fair shake", Bill. What you want is to create an uneven playing field by granting people additional rights based purely on immutable characteristics. What makes you a Marxist is your adherence to Marxist principles. Your entire position is based on them, yet it took this long for you to admit as much.

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Yes, denial of the existence of white supremacy is the whole point of your argument. The fact that you don't deny it speaks volumes.

Another infantile misrepresentation of my position. The fact that you have to outright lie about my position is what speaks volumes, Bill. You're incapable of attacking my actual arguments and so you try in vain to set up strawman after strawman.

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American and British workers are losing their buying power, as well as their social mobility upward. I fail to see who would be at fault for this, save those who control the economy.

I agree. You do fail to have a nuanced view of wealth and the economy. It partially explains why you offer such simplistic solutions to complex issues.

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23 Jan 2018, 7:23 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

American and British workers are losing their buying power, as well as their social mobility upward. I fail to see who would be at fault for this, save those who control the economy.

It's their own fault of course! If they weren't so lazy they'd be rich by now! /sarcasm

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23 Jan 2018, 1:31 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

American and British workers are losing their buying power, as well as their social mobility upward. I fail to see who would be at fault for this, save those who control the economy.

Loss of buying power is the inevitable outcome of crazed free trade doctrine. American and British workers are directly competing against newly freed peasants from the third world who will work for a few dollars a day. Their wages were always going to go down in such a world. Definitely an economic issue.

Social mobility coming to an end though, at least in Britain, is a result of misguided progressive egalitarian dogma. Upwards social mobility was always predicated on natural talent, the illiterate coal miner was never going to be a lawyer but his smart son or daughter might have been, in a world not too distant from ours. Egalitarians, for some reason, despise natural talent. They make IQ testing illegal, they close academically selective schools, they debase education, they make quotas for gender and race that by their nature work against the talented of other groups. This is not an economic problem per se.

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23 Jan 2018, 2:47 pm

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

I suspect African Americans have experienced that oppression much closer to modern times than your people had.

On what basis do you make that assumption? My skin colour?

Are you actually aware what my racial/ethnic background is?

Quote:

In fact, plenty of older blacks can still remember those bad old days.

And what distinguishes the "bad old days" from today?

Quote:

Believe I'm a Marxist for wanting the little guy to get a fair shake, if you will. I'll wear that designation as a badge of pride.

Quote:

Yes, denial of the existence of white supremacy is the whole point of your argument. The fact that you don't deny it speaks volumes.

Quote:

American and British workers are losing their buying power, as well as their social mobility upward. I fail to see who would be at fault for this, save those who control the economy.

I agree. You do fail to have a nuanced view of wealth and the economy. It partially explains why you offer such simplistic solutions to complex issues.

No, I have no idea about your ethnic makeup. You're just rude and sarcastic messages from a keyboard, somewhere.
What makes today significantly different from the bad old days of yesteryear is that violence and lynchings against African Americans and others aren't nearly as common, as those crimes are less likely to go unpunished - - thanks to civil rights legislation.
Yes, I do care about the little guy. My dad was a union grievance man (shop steward), so I am fully aware of how working people have had to fight tooth and nail for everything they had, and how they have been sliding further and further away from prosperity since the Reagan years. And yes, I do want equality, but I also understand that simply declaring people equal under the law doesn't cut it. It often takes radical action.
If you don't support racism and blind conservatism, you still haven't explained exactly what it is you believe.

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23 Jan 2018, 8:10 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

No, I have no idea about your ethnic makeup.

And yet you deem it appropriate to preach at me about the plight of the minority.

Perhaps I should ask you to check your privilege, comrade?

Quote:

You're just rude and sarcastic messages from a keyboard, somewhere.

I must insist you don't objectify me, even if it is as a sentient keyboard.

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What makes today significantly different from the bad old days of yesteryear is that violence and lynchings against African Americans and others aren't nearly as common, as those crimes are less likely to go unpunished - - thanks to civil rights legislation.

So you're saying the system works! Excellent.

Quote:

Yes, I do care about the little guy. My dad was a union grievance man (shop steward), so I am fully aware of how working people have had to fight tooth and nail for everything they had, and how they have been sliding further and further away from prosperity since the Reagan years.

A Marxist with a union man for a father? Talk about stereotypes...

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And yes, I do want equality

Of outcome.

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but I also understand that simply declaring people equal under the law doesn't cut it.

Luckily we have an entire judicial system in place which goes a great deal further than simple declarations, serves as the mechanism by which disputes can be resolved and redress sought.

Quote:

It often takes radical action.

Like punching "nazis", smashing up stores and setting things on fire?

Quote:

If you don't support racism and blind conservatism, you still haven't explained exactly what it is you believe.

There's the partisan bigotry again, Bill. Define "conservatism" in a manner which means anything other than "bad people who aren't in my in-group".

I don't rely on beliefs, Bill. I stand on principles which you're welcome to try and challenge any time you feel like addressing my arguments instead of your own men of straw.

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23 Jan 2018, 8:33 pm

adifferentname wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

No, I have no idea about your ethnic makeup.

And yet you deem it appropriate to preach at me about the plight of the minority.

Perhaps I should ask you to check your privilege, comrade?

Quote:

You're just rude and sarcastic messages from a keyboard, somewhere.

I must insist you don't objectify me, even if it is as a sentient keyboard.

Quote:

So you're saying the system works! Excellent.

Quote:

A Marxist with a union man for a father? Talk about stereotypes...

Quote:

And yes, I do want equality

Of outcome.

Quote:

but I also understand that simply declaring people equal under the law doesn't cut it.

Luckily we have an entire judicial system in place which goes a great deal further than simple declarations, serves as the mechanism by which disputes can be resolved and redress sought.

Quote:

It often takes radical action.

Like punching "nazis", smashing up stores and setting things on fire?

Quote:

If you don't support racism and blind conservatism, you still haven't explained exactly what it is you believe.

Yes, the system works - - only because of laws meant to bring about equality.
You have yet to tell me your ethnic makeup.
I doubt you know what constitutes a real Marxist. But then again, few conservatives do. Here's a hint: real Marxists would kick me out of their meeting for being a capitalist pig.
Radical action in such things as civil rights laws, demonstrations and marches, etc. But yes, sometimes Nazis are just begging to be punched. :twisted:

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