The Difference Between The Civil War and WWII

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Pepe
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26 Jan 2018, 9:13 pm

MidnightMoon wrote:
Sorry to tell you, but the Civil War wasn't just about slavery.


I was told this about 45 years ago...
I am staggered at the misrepresentation of the truth, or is it profound ignorance, or is it cynical manipulation...

Not knowing much of American history, could someone explain why the "rebel" flag is maligned and why statues in the south are being removed?
The impression is it is all about the slavery issue, but as has been discussed, slavery was not the reason for the civil war...

Is it once again a question of the truth being sodomised to appease some political agenda?

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
It's pretty sad how some countries can't accept their own ugly history.


Thankfully, here in Australia, there are no skeletons in the closet like the US mistreatment of the American Indians...<irony> :mrgreen:



kraftiekortie
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26 Jan 2018, 9:22 pm

The main issue was the fact that various Southern states seceded from the United States.

The event that stated the war was the Confederate attack on the Union Fort Sumter, off the coast of Confederate South Carolina.



Pepe
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26 Jan 2018, 9:33 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe Lincoln only became a "free-soiler" because of political expediency. He was the consummate politician. He knew that being an outright Abolitionist would have been political suicide.


Agreed...
I am amazed that more people don't consider the zeitgeist of the time...
I have made the same argument in regards to Mohammed/Muhammed having to implement changes gradually so as not to offend the masses to the point of rebellion against himself and his teachings...

EDIT:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The main issue was the fact that various Southern states seceded from the United States.

The event that stated the war was the Confederate attack on the Union Fort Sumter, off the coast of Confederate South Carolina.


Are you sure it wasn't a false flag operation whereby union soldiers dressed as confederates to initiate the civil war? :mrgreen:



TwinRuler
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27 Jan 2018, 3:55 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I believe Lincoln only became a "free-soiler" because of political expediency. He was the consummate politician. He knew that being an outright Abolitionist would have been political suicide.

I believe his anti-slavery sentiments were stronger than what was stated, though he did believe in the intrinsic inferiority of the "black race," and wanted to settle them in Africa.


Some say that Hitler originally wanted to send the Jews to what is now Israel. Still, it is rather hard to know what to believe anymore.



TwinRuler
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27 Jan 2018, 3:57 pm

I do believe the Civil War was to free the Blacks from Slavery. The main right The South fought for, was the right for Whites to own Blacks, as slaves. That, of course, was the main State Right!



RainbowUnion
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27 Jan 2018, 4:01 pm

Four great myths of the American Civil War:

1. It wasnt about slavery. It is true that Lincoln did say that he had no intention of ending slavery, and indeed he did not. But the South didnt believe him, and saw him as aligned with the abolitionists. The slaves were second only to the land itself as the most valuable property in the South of that time. Of course they would fight to defend it. It is true that most Southerners did not own slaves, but many of them did fight because they didnt want to end up as "no better than blacks."

2. The South had the legal right to do what they did. The Constitution contains no provision for any state to leave the Union, and states furthermore that no two states shall make a collusion or confederacy.

3. Half the country favored the South. The population of the US at the time of the war was around 30 million, of which around 5 million were whites who lived in the states of the rebellion. Five out of thirty is nowhere close to half. In addition, every southern state except SC comitted men and resources to the Union cause.

4. The South was a nation. To qualify for this, you generally need three things, all of which the South lacked. A workable government, the ability to defend your borders, and most important the recognition of other world nation states. They were a large and well armed sepratist movement, but not a nation.


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TwinRuler
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27 Jan 2018, 4:04 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:
Four great myths of the American Civil War:

1. It wasnt about slavery. It is true that Lincoln did say that he had no intention of ending slavery, and indeed he did not. But the South didnt believe him, and saw him as aligned with the abolitionists. The slaves were second only to the land itself as the most valuable property in the South of that time. Of course they would fight to defend it. It is true that most Southerners did not own slaves, but many of them did fight because they didnt want to end up as "no better than blacks."

2. The South had the legal right to do what they did. The Constitution contains no provision for any state to leave the Union, and states furthermore that no two states shall make a collusion or confederacy.

3. Half the country favored the South. The population of the US at the time of the war was around 30 million, of which around 5 million were whites who lived in the states of the rebellion. Five out of thirty is nowhere close to half. In addition, every southern state except SC comitted men and resources to the Union cause.

4. The South was a nation. To qualify for this, you generally need three things, all of which the South lacked. A workable government, the ability to defend your borders, and most important the recognition of other world nation states. They were a large and well armed sepratist movement, but not a nation.

:D Hello Rainbow Union. All four points are most interesting. Thank you for pointing them out.



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27 Jan 2018, 4:12 pm

Twin, I've read one historian who described the Confederacy as "the nation with nothing". Nothing but land and men and slaves. Their lack of group cohesion and concern for the common good would very likely have doomed them in the long run had they won. My prediction: within 20 years of Southern independence, those states boardering the Union (Missouri, Kentucky, etc) would have rejoined the USA, Texas would have broken off and become a nation of their own, and what was left of the CSA would then evolve over the next century into a third world country essentially.


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Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado


TwinRuler
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27 Jan 2018, 4:14 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:
Twin, I've read one historian who described the Confederacy as "the nation with nothing". Nothing but land and men and slaves. Their lack of group cohesion and concern for the common good would very likely have doomed them in the long run had they won. My prediction: within 20 years of Southern independence, those states boardering the Union (Missouri, Kentucky, etc) would have rejoined the USA, Texas would have broken off and become a nation of their own, and what was left of the CSA would then evolve over the next century into a third world country essentially.

Very fascinating.



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27 Jan 2018, 4:46 pm

TwinRuler wrote:

Some say that Hitler originally wanted to send the Jews to what is now Israel. Still, it is rather hard to know what to believe anymore.


Indeed...

Quote:
The Madagascar Plan was a proposal by the Nazi German government to relocate the Jewish population of Europe to the island of Madagascar. Franz Rademacher, head of the Jewish Department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs for the German government, proposed the idea in June 1940, shortly before the Fall of France. The proposal called for the handing over of control of Madagascar, then a French colony, to Germany as part of the French surrender terms.

The idea of deporting Polish Jews to Madagascar was investigated by the Polish government in 1937,[1][2] but the task force sent to evaluate the island's potential determined that only 5,000 to 7,000 families could be accommodated, or even as few as 500 families by some estimates.[a] Because efforts by the Nazis to encourage the emigration of the Jewish population of Germany before World War II were only partially successful, the idea of deporting Jews to Madagascar was revived by the Nazi government in 1940.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

*If* the above is true (could the historians amongst us verify please?), there was clear indication that the genocide of the Jews was not, initially at least, on the Nazi agenda...

My position here is simply considering the *logical* ramifications of the policy of deportation, assuming it is historically accurate...
Unless this was some forward thinking smoke screen by the Nazi regime, the reasoning is irrefutable...
Surely, it is only logical, Mr Spock... :mrgreen:



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27 Jan 2018, 11:13 pm

TwinRuler wrote:
I do believe the Civil War was to free the Blacks from Slavery. The main right The South fought for, was the right for Whites to own Blacks, as slaves. That, of course, was the main State Right!

Not
:roll:


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29 Jan 2018, 3:51 pm

Raptor wrote:
TwinRuler wrote:
I do believe the Civil War was to free the Blacks from Slavery. The main right The South fought for, was the right for Whites to own Blacks, as slaves. That, of course, was the main State Right!

Not
:roll:


Not jokes are so last century there Johnny.

"The Confederacy started
When racist rednecks farted
The mentally ret*d
The Confederacy!

They belong in a museum
But nobody would want to see em
They smell like curdled cream
The Confederacy!"


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Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado


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29 Jan 2018, 4:11 pm

Fun Fact: The confederate battle flag looked like this for a while.
Image
The whiteness on the flag represents the purity of the white, Aryan race.

They stopped using that flag because it was mistaken for a surrender flag. :lol:

Also, Confederate money had slaves on it.
Image


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Pepe
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29 Jan 2018, 4:12 pm

RainbowUnion wrote:
Raptor wrote:
TwinRuler wrote:
I do believe the Civil War was to free the Blacks from Slavery. The main right The South fought for, was the right for Whites to own Blacks, as slaves. That, of course, was the main State Right!

Not
:roll:


Not jokes are so last century there Johnny.

"The Confederacy started
When racist rednecks farted
The mentally ret*d
The Confederacy!

They belong in a museum
But nobody would want to see em
They smell like curdled cream
The Confederacy!"


WTF!
What have I stumbled into here?! 8O

I don't want to get between you too dudes, but I will point out that "not" wasn't a "joke"...
It was a comment, assuming I properly understand the context here between you two guys...
The context is "hate", I believe? 8O



RainbowUnion
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29 Jan 2018, 4:14 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Fun Fact: The confederate battle flag looked like this for a while.
Image
The whiteness on the flag represents the purity of the white, Aryan race.

They stopped using that flag because it was mistaken for a surrender flag. :lol:

Also, Confederate money had slaves on it.
Image


What you posted was not the Confederate battle flag. It is in fact the second Confederate national flag. The X part is actually the battle flag when square and on its own and the Confederate naval jack when presented as a rectangular flag.

Yes, a major problem with that flag was the fact that for the most part it is a featureless white flag, and was mistaken for a white flag of truce. So in 1865 they put a red bar at the end of the flag. The first version is called the Stainless Banner, the second the Bloodstained Banner.


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"It must be understood, that neither by word nor deed had I given Fortunato cause to doubt my good-will. I continued as was my wont, to smile in his face, and he did not perceive that my smile was at the thought of his immolation."

Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado


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29 Jan 2018, 4:17 pm

Pepe wrote:
RainbowUnion wrote:
Raptor wrote:
TwinRuler wrote:
I do believe the Civil War was to free the Blacks from Slavery. The main right The South fought for, was the right for Whites to own Blacks, as slaves. That, of course, was the main State Right!

Not
:roll:


Not jokes are so last century there Johnny.

"The Confederacy started
When racist rednecks farted
The mentally ret*d
The Confederacy!

They belong in a museum
But nobody would want to see em
They smell like curdled cream
The Confederacy!"


WTF!
What have I stumbled into here?! 8O

I don't want to get between you too dudes, but I will point out that "not" wasn't a "joke"...
It was a comment, assuming I properly understand the context here between you two guys...
The context is "hate", I believe? 8O


Whatever. I'm delighted the war left the south rich in nothing but widows, ruins, and amputees. If only it had also the added benefit of permanent social changes to the South too. Like the execution of the slave owners for their crimes and then simply giving all of their money and property to their slaves.


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"It must be understood, that neither by word nor deed had I given Fortunato cause to doubt my good-will. I continued as was my wont, to smile in his face, and he did not perceive that my smile was at the thought of his immolation."

Edgar Allan Poe, The Cask of Amontillado