What if race wasn't fictional?

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13 Mar 2018, 6:48 am

Er...That study only shows that Neanderthals were their own species and not a sup-species of Homo Sapiens. the text you linked even refers to "Neanderthals and other extinct branches of the human family."

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magz
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13 Mar 2018, 6:48 am

Mudboy wrote:

Daniel89 wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

Daniel89 wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

Lions and tigers are felines, they are not the same species, yet they have offspring. Horses and donkeys are equine, and they are different species that can breed. Humans and Neanderthals are hominims but not the same species. Human is a subset type of homimin.

Science shows Neanderthals were not human. Their DNA indicates they were a different species of hominim. The other hominims referenced were also not human, their DNA was simply close enough to successfully interbreed with humans. DNA shows this interbreeding of different hominim races is part of what created different human ethnicities.

Descriptions of Neanderthals are very similar to descriptions of Scandinavian trolls. People still claim to see trolls there, so it is possible Neanderthals and other mythical hominims are not actually extinct. Mythology can often be backed up by science.

Neanderthals were human just another species of human. Polar bears and Brown bears can and do reproduce their offspring are still fertile and suffer no defects.

Neanderthals Not Human
The study found that the differences measured between humans and Neanderthals were significantly greater than those found between subspecies of any single group, indicating Neanderthals were not a subspecies if humans. In addition, the difference was as great or greater than that found between closely related primate species, such as humans, gorillas and chimpanzees.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/neanderthals-not-human-ancestors/

You seem to be implying we are more closely related to Gorillas than Neanderthals? We interbred with them they were absolutely Human.

Why are you twisting published science into aberrant fiction? Are you a competing anthropologist with an alternate study? Can you show me where your study is published?

1. CBS news is not where researchers publish and unfortunately, the article doesn't link to actual scientific publications;
2. Have you even read it? It ends with

Quote:

According to Templeton, the most recent migration, and perhaps both, were not "replacement events." Rather, he said DNA evidence shows evidence of interbreeding.

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magz
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13 Mar 2018, 6:50 am

And by the way, the article is dated 2004. Quite a bit of research has been done since then.

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13 Mar 2018, 6:57 am

Correct. As stated in my earlier comment, The "human family" is composed of hominims, just as horses and zebras are equine, cats are feline, and dogs are canine. These biological families contain different species.
If you have an updated anthropological study, that contradicts my earlier statemate, I again ask you please provide it.

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Wolfram87
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13 Mar 2018, 7:00 am

So by what metric are Neanderthals then "not human"?

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magz
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13 Mar 2018, 7:09 am

Mudboy wrote:

How about https://www.sciencedaily.com/search/?ke ... eanderthal ?

Neanderthals were humans (genus Homo). And, of course, hominins.
There is ongoing debate among the scholars, wheather they were a separate species of humans or a subspecies of Homo Sapiens.
There is no consensus about it yet.
There is evidence of at least some interbreeding.

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13 Mar 2018, 7:18 am

Wolfram87 wrote:

So by what metric are Neanderthals then "not human"?

magz wrote:

1. CBS news is not where researchers publish and unfortunately, the article doesn't link to actual scientific publications;
2. Have you even read it? It ends with

Quote:

According to Templeton, the most recent migration, and perhaps both, were not "replacement events." Rather, he said DNA evidence shows evidence of interbreeding.

These items were covered in my previous statements. I consider them redundant circular arguments. What is your intent?

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13 Mar 2018, 7:22 am

magz wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

Yes, that is the study where the out of Africa theory had two stages. The first stage was a single species that migrated and evolved to other hominins. Then eons later, homo sapiens left Africa, and interbred with the other hominins. It is another theory using the same data.

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magz
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13 Mar 2018, 7:23 am

My intent?
I just don't like confusing news articles with scientific publications, that's all.

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13 Mar 2018, 7:37 am

magz wrote:

My intent?
I just don't like confusing news articles with scientific publications, that's all.

Katerina Harvati is the scientist from the news article. She is very well known for her science publications on this subject. She did a mini series on this subject for PBS and a show for NOVA (also PBS).

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magz
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13 Mar 2018, 7:51 am

Mudboy wrote:

magz wrote:

My intent?
I just don't like confusing news articles with scientific publications, that's all.

Possibly but the news article has gone through news editor who rarely understands all the nuances and who isn't peer-pressured to use precise language. They is rather pressured to produce catchy headlines.

So if we argue if Neanderthals could be called humans, a news article employs far too little precision to proof anything, even if it's based on valid research.

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13 Mar 2018, 8:11 am

magz wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

magz wrote:

My intent?
I just don't like confusing news articles with scientific publications, that's all.

Here is Katerina Harvati giving a lecture on the subject. Minutes 20 to 24 give the details of Neanderthals being a separate species. Then she goes into the interbreeding. https://vimeo.com/33175754

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Wolfram87
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13 Mar 2018, 8:16 am

Mudboy wrote:

Wolfram87 wrote:

So by what metric are Neanderthals then "not human"?

magz wrote:

1. CBS news is not where researchers publish and unfortunately, the article doesn't link to actual scientific publications;
2. Have you even read it? It ends with

Quote:

According to Templeton, the most recent migration, and perhaps both, were not "replacement events." Rather, he said DNA evidence shows evidence of interbreeding.

These items were covered in my previous statements. I consider them redundant circular arguments. What is your intent?

Going back and reading, I can't see that it is, unless you're being sloppy with your terminology and using "Human" to both mean "Homo Sapiens" and "Genus "Homo"" without specifying which you mean at a given time.

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13 Mar 2018, 9:07 am

Mudboy wrote:

magz wrote:

Mudboy wrote:

magz wrote:

My intent?
I just don't like confusing news articles with scientific publications, that's all.

Here is Katerina Harvati giving a lecture on the subject. Minutes 20 to 24 give the details of Neanderthals being a separate species. Then she goes into the interbreeding. https://vimeo.com/33175754

I'm glad you improved the quality of your argumants because this exactly was my point.

Now let's resolve it: the researchers are careful to use term "anatomically modern humans", not just "humans". Everyday language lacks precision here. Katerina Harvati gives some evidence supporting the concept of a different species – of course different species within the genus Homo.

As Wolfram pointed out, the word "humans" may mean either "anatomically modern humans" or "genus Homo" (in my native language "human" is used officially for the whole genus Homo but not for all hominins). So, let's be precise and please, state your point again, using these terms.

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14 Mar 2018, 5:53 pm

Mikah wrote:

You cannot say there is no meaningful biological difference between human ethnic groups (scientists are very careful not to say this) or proclaim every ethnic group has the same talents and abilities.

I don't think you read my post properly, it is others, DMK in particular, who have made the leap based on the statements of geneticists. "Race is not useful to a geneticists" =/= "All races & ethnic groups are the same". It's a misleading statement, which has misled those who want to be misled.

I understand that this is your criticism of DMK. What interests me is what I quoted. If you want to make a distinction between "meaningful biological difference" and "talents and abilities" where it comes to population differences, what is it? If you want to treat "talents and abilities" as a "meaningful biological difference" in which populations differ, how tdo you get from one to the other. I am interested in what you are claiming here.

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15 Mar 2018, 3:12 am

I think we need to understand that the archaeological Homo neandethalis based on skeletons is now void given the evidence we carry Neanderthal DNA markers it's not possible that nenderthals are a separate species

This smacks of 19th and 20th century pseudoscience about non-white people being closer to monkeys based on spurious publications on skull phrenology and other debunked claims

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