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kdm1984
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16 May 2019, 2:29 pm

Comparing marriage to tobacco use is so absurd that it's comedic. Half of marriages also last until death, and those families are the better for the stability they provided their children. What, would you rather have children born out of wedlock in fatherless homes? Yeah, great idea there...not.


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BlueIris24
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16 May 2019, 2:31 pm

kdm1984 wrote:
Everyone ultimately comes to their own conclusions on matters of spirituality and religion. I'd encourage you to view those passages in their proper contexts, but you are likely convinced already in your own mind, so it would probably be useless to try and persuade you otherwise. As mentioned, my own husband is not theistic, and it's not my place to attempt to force-convert him.

Nonetheless, again, I still defend marriage in and of its own sake. I put forth this in the OP and included other religious and value systems in the post that also still value marriage.


What makes a context "proper"? That's the thing. There's no one right context.



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16 May 2019, 2:37 pm

kdm1984 wrote:
Comparing marriage to tobacco use is so absurd that it's comedic.
I did not compare marriage to tobacco. I compared a fictional "Marriage General's Warning" to the actual "Surgeon General's Warning", and suggested that such a warning would be ineffective.
kdm1984 wrote:
Half of marriages also last until death, and those families are the better for the stability they provided their children.
I certainly agree with that, but only insofar as those children that are not born into loveless marriages.
kdm1984 wrote:
What, would you rather have children born out of wedlock in fatherless homes? Yeah, great idea there...not.
Now you're just projecting and being facetious. I am not advocating against marriage. I am advocating against people thinking that marriage is something to be taken lightly. Thus the warning.


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TwilightPrincess
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16 May 2019, 2:38 pm

BlueIris24 wrote:
kdm1984 wrote:
Everyone ultimately comes to their own conclusions on matters of spirituality and religion. I'd encourage you to view those passages in their proper contexts, but you are likely convinced already in your own mind, so it would probably be useless to try and persuade you otherwise. As mentioned, my own husband is not theistic, and it's not my place to attempt to force-convert him.

Nonetheless, again, I still defend marriage in and of its own sake. I put forth this in the OP and included other religious and value systems in the post that also still value marriage.


What makes a context "proper"? That's the thing. There's no one right context.


Exactly!

I can’t think of any context that would make those quotes seem any better. It’s not like I’m pulling some obscure, complex scripture out of the book of Daniel or Revelations.



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16 May 2019, 2:40 pm

kdm1984 wrote:
Comparing marriage to tobacco use is so absurd that it's comedic. Half of marriages also last until death, and those families are the better for the stability they provided their children. What, would you rather have children born out of wedlock in fatherless homes? Yeah, great idea there...not.


That's a pretty big straw man. I don't think he ever made that point. I do like the point he's making. Too many people rush into marriages without looking at how it will affect them long term, whether it's due to societal/familial pressure or lust.



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16 May 2019, 2:42 pm

Fnord wrote:
kdm1984 wrote:
Comparing marriage to tobacco use is so absurd that it's comedic.
I did not compare marriage to tobacco. I compared a fictional "Marriage General's Warning" to the actual "Surgeon General's Warning", and suggested that such a warning would be ineffective.
kdm1984 wrote:
Half of marriages also last until death, and those families are the better for the stability they provided their children.
I certainly agree with that, but only insofar as those children that are not born into loveless marriages.
kdm1984 wrote:
What, would you rather have children born out of wedlock in fatherless homes? Yeah, great idea there...not.
Now you're just projecting and being facetious. I am not advocating against marriage. I am advocating against people thinking that marriage is something to be taken lightly. Thus the warning.


I’ve often seen religious people marry just so they can have some God-approved sex. In my frequent observations of this (well, not of the sex :P ), it doesn’t tend to lead to long term, marital bliss.



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16 May 2019, 2:44 pm

kdm1984 wrote:
@AngelRho nice thorough reply. Husband and I agreed it would be best for me not to engage Twilightprincess further because of our completely different backgrounds and ways of viewing things, so I put her on the foe list to avoid further confrontation and derailing of this thread.
Discussions are meant to show "different backgrounds and ways of viewing things".


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16 May 2019, 2:53 pm

magz wrote:
kdm1984 wrote:
@AngelRho nice thorough reply. Husband and I agreed it would be best for me not to engage Twilightprincess further because of our completely different backgrounds and ways of viewing things, so I put her on the foe list to avoid further confrontation and derailing of this thread.
Discussions are meant to show "different backgrounds and ways of viewing things".


The Bible encourages us to love our enemies.

Also, Galatians 5:22, 23 tells us that love, peace, forbearance, and self control are some of the fruits of God’s Holy Spirit.

Thus, personal attacks would not be reflecting the Spirit that true Christians should be annointed with or the example of Christ. It would also not be the way to win people over to the Truth in the scriptures. (1 Corinthians 9:22)

(This ain’t my first rodeo.)



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 16 May 2019, 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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16 May 2019, 2:53 pm

BlueIris24 wrote:
That's a pretty big straw man. I don't think he ever made that point. I do like the point he's making. Too many people rush into marriages without looking at how it will affect them long term, whether it's due to societal/familial pressure or lust.
Thank you. That is exactly what I mean.


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16 May 2019, 2:56 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
magz wrote:
kdm1984 wrote:
@AngelRho nice thorough reply. Husband and I agreed it would be best for me not to engage Twilightprincess further because of our completely different backgrounds and ways of viewing things, so I put her on the foe list to avoid further confrontation and derailing of this thread.
Discussions are meant to show "different backgrounds and ways of viewing things".
The Bible encourages us to love our enemies. Also, Galatians 5:22, 23 tells us that love, peace, forbearance, and self control are some of the fruits of God’s Holy Spirit. Thus, personal attacks would not be reflecting the Spirit that true Christians should be annointed with or the example of Christ. It would also not be the way to be won over to the Truth in the scriptures. (1 Corinthians 9:22)
The Bible also speak out against bigamy, to wit: "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other..." -- Jesus (in Matthew 6:24)


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magz
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16 May 2019, 3:10 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
I’ve often seen religious people marry just so they can have some God-approved sex. In my frequent observations of this (well, not of the sex :P ), it doesn’t tend to lead to long term, marital bliss.

I was quite religious when we were getting married and this point was important for me.
I was also aware that there is no "and they lived happily ever after" - life is full of challenges both before and after marriage.
But, honestly, all the ideology had melted with the expirience of finding each other a few years before the ceremony. It was just about making things clear before God and the society.


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16 May 2019, 3:25 pm

I don't know much about marriage, but I am a woman and my co-ordination skills are bad. I am not good at housework at all.



Fnord
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16 May 2019, 3:32 pm

magz wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I’ve often seen religious people marry just so they can have some God-approved sex. In my frequent observations of this (well, not of the sex :P ), it doesn’t tend to lead to long term, marital bliss.
I was quite religious when we were getting married and this point was important for me. I was also aware that there is no "and they lived happily ever after" -- life is full of challenges both before and after marriage. But, honestly, all the ideology had melted with the experience of finding each other a few years before the ceremony. It was just about making things clear before God and the society.
"Happily Ever After" ... what a concept! Some quotes by comedian/philosopher Rita Rudner:

"I love being married. It’s so great to find that one special person you want to annoy for the rest of your life."

"I was asking a friend who has children, 'What if I have a baby and I dedicate my life to it and it grows up to hate me, and it blames everything wrong with its life on me?' And she said, 'If?'”

"I know I want to have children while my parents are still young enough to take care of them."

"If your husband has difficulty in getting to sleep, the words, 'We need to talk about our relationship' may help."

"If you never want to see a man again say, 'I love you, I want to marry you, I want to have your children'. Sometimes they leave skid marks."

... and my favorite:

"When I date a guy, I think, 'Is this the man I want my children to spend every-other weekend with?"


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breaks0
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16 May 2019, 5:15 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
Having been in a submissive marriage as a Christian wife, I have had the opposite experience. It was degrading, demeaning, offensive, and...I’m running out of negative adjectives. I need to drink more coffee!

I wouldn’t be against a marriage based on equality, but I don’t think that a piece of paper necessarily has a whole lot to do with love.

The Bible is a misogynistic handbook. There’s no reason why women can’t achieve the same things men have (unless it’s being able to hit targets with their pee).

I thought you said you were Christian or something. Maybe I misunderstood. Anyway, otherwise totally agreed. This is a part of why feminism is not the problem. Why would you oppose a belief system that simply believes in gender equality anyway? It baffles me when I see people on the spectrum (one marginalized community) have an issue w/feminism or gender equality, racial equality, etc. It isn't hard to figure out that you'll be the next target (as people on the spectrum and disabled people already are) if you open the doors to opponents of gender, racial and other forms of equality between people.



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16 May 2019, 5:30 pm

breaks0 wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
Having been in a submissive marriage as a Christian wife, I have had the opposite experience. It was degrading, demeaning, offensive, and...I’m running out of negative adjectives. I need to drink more coffee!

I wouldn’t be against a marriage based on equality, but I don’t think that a piece of paper necessarily has a whole lot to do with love.

The Bible is a misogynistic handbook. There’s no reason why women can’t achieve the same things men have (unless it’s being able to hit targets with their pee).

I thought you said you were Christian or something. Maybe I misunderstood. Anyway, otherwise totally agreed. This is a part of why feminism is not the problem. Why would you oppose a belief system that simply believes in gender equality anyway? It baffles me when I see people on the spectrum (one marginalized community) have an issue w/feminism or gender equality, racial equality, etc. It isn't hard to figure out that you'll be the next target (as people on the spectrum and disabled people already are) if you open the doors to opponents of gender, racial and other forms of equality between people.


Im not a Christian, but I used to be and know the Bible very well and have fun sparring with it sometimes.

I think that in one of my posts it may have looked like I was but I was really just being sarcastic.



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16 May 2019, 5:33 pm

Fnord wrote:
magz wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
I’ve often seen religious people marry just so they can have some God-approved sex. In my frequent observations of this (well, not of the sex :P ), it doesn’t tend to lead to long term, marital bliss.
I was quite religious when we were getting married and this point was important for me. I was also aware that there is no "and they lived happily ever after" -- life is full of challenges both before and after marriage. But, honestly, all the ideology had melted with the experience of finding each other a few years before the ceremony. It was just about making things clear before God and the society.
"Happily Ever After" ... what a concept! Some quotes by comedian/philosopher Rita Rudner:

"I love being married. It’s so great to find that one special person you want to annoy for the rest of your life."

"I was asking a friend who has children, 'What if I have a baby and I dedicate my life to it and it grows up to hate me, and it blames everything wrong with its life on me?' And she said, 'If?'”

"I know I want to have children while my parents are still young enough to take care of them."

"If your husband has difficulty in getting to sleep, the words, 'We need to talk about our relationship' may help."

"If you never want to see a man again say, 'I love you, I want to marry you, I want to have your children'. Sometimes they leave skid marks."

... and my favorite:

"When I date a guy, I think, 'Is this the man I want my children to spend every-other weekend with?"


Yeah. I think of marital bliss as loving someone even though that person drives you nuts sometimes.