A cap on wealth?
Something that I really noticed where I live is as soon as minimum wage came in jobs dissapeared, and those that were left, one had to work "Hidden hours" or the employer made up for it in other ways like changing the uniform and all staff had to buy the new uniforms which cost 10 times more then ordinary clothes would. (E.g. in the late 1990's a company tee shirt was costing £90 each and one had to have a full uniform which came out as more then a months wags just to be allowed to work there... And every so often they changed the colour or style of the uniform. But foe me it was "Hidden hours" where one worked nearly double the hours one was actually paid for to keep ones job.
And the lengths some people will go to to defend the ultra wealthy boggles my mind. In any case, our current version of capitalism isn't sustainable, and I fear too many people are going to learn that the hard way when it's far too late.
I am not defending the ultra wealthy. I am defending the rights of freedom. Start putting limits to what one is allowed to do and ones freedom has been erroded.
Communism starts off as being principally good. Everything shared equally, but to preserve it in practice and it turns into slavery where a few people dictate what goes on and everyoe else has to comply. This is when there eds up a revolution and the communism starts again after many people are killed, and they blame each other (E.g. the downtrodden blame the ones who give the orders etc, but if they all stood back,they would see that communism for a long term prospect does not work and it is not anyones fault. It is how it is).
Last edited by Mountain Goat on 23 Nov 2020, 7:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
And the lengths some people will go to to defend the ultra wealthy boggles my mind. In any case, our current version of capitalism isn't sustainable, and I fear too many people are going to learn that the hard way when it's far too late.
I am not defending the ultra wealthy. I am defending the rights of freedom. Start putting limits to what one is allowed to do and ones freedom has been erroded.
Your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.
When the top 1% are hoarding wealth to the point where it is a detriment to society, it is no longer a matter of "freedom."
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
And the lengths some people will go to to defend the ultra wealthy boggles my mind. In any case, our current version of capitalism isn't sustainable, and I fear too many people are going to learn that the hard way when it's far too late.
I am not defending the ultra wealthy. I am defending the rights of freedom. Start putting limits to what one is allowed to do and ones freedom has been erroded.
Your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.
When the top 1% are hoarding wealth to the point where it is a detriment to society, it is no longer a matter of "freedom."
I realize that. But what we are proposing is what the ultra wealthy want because they are no longer interested in wealth, but are interested in power and control, hence why they seem to be spiting themselves but they want people to consider communism so they can take control, as they are bored as they are as they have already gained many times more then they need under a system which promotes freedom in order that people can thrive.
I do not know what an ideal answer is though.
And the lengths some people will go to to defend the ultra wealthy boggles my mind. In any case, our current version of capitalism isn't sustainable, and I fear too many people are going to learn that the hard way when it's far too late.
I am not defending the ultra wealthy. I am defending the rights of freedom. Start putting limits to what one is allowed to do and ones freedom has been erroded.
Your freedom to swing your fist ends where my nose begins.
When the top 1% are hoarding wealth to the point where it is a detriment to society, it is no longer a matter of "freedom."
I realize that. But what we are proposing is what the ultra wealthy want because they are no longer interested in wealth, but are interested in power and control, hence why they seem to be spiting themselves but they want people to consider communism so they can take control, as they are bored as they are as they have already gained many times more then they need under a system which promotes freedom in order that people can thrive.
I do not know what an ideal answer is though.
"Communism" is a moneyless, stateless, classless society. And the ultra wealthy already control just about everything.
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
It doesn't sound like a good idea to me. Like has been said, why would one put in any more effort once they've reached the cap? Let's say that someone rich/well off, who's just a little ways away from reaching the cap, came up with a good business idea. The question is, why would they act on the idea if they'd get no profit? Sure, their name might get more known in a positive light, but is it worth the financial risk that comes with a new business? Worth the stress? Worth the free time lost, especially when they know that even if it's a success, they themselves wouldn't gain anything. Some people might be ready for it, but I'm pretty sure extreme majority wouldn't.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all up for everyone (assuming they're law following citizens) having a roof over their head, food to eat and access to needed medical care and having all that arranged with tax money, but people need to have a chance to get more than that with their own hard work. And inheriting money and other goods is simply about someone who has earned them passing them down to who they want to, in other words using their own money as they please, so I don't think that government confisticating property when one dies would be fair, either.
However, if there was a cap, I think one of the ways to get people to be more accepting of it would be to let them choose how the government has to use their money that goes over the cap. Not the details, but things like if it was used for medical care, education, well being of animals etc. For example, I personally would much rather prefer my tax money to go to medical research than advancing new technology.
If there was a cap, what rights do a government have in taking money beyond that cap as it is not theirs to take unless the government happens to turn into a form of dictatorship.
Just a quick note to Sweetleaf. Thank you for this thread as it has made me think. I may take the opposite side to your thinking (But because of the restrictions to freedom rather then the principles you have stated), but I think you are ace for your thoughts on the subject.
It can be new technology which allows medical research to happen.
It can be new technology which allows medical care to be advanced or even exist;
https://africanews.space/how-space-base ... in-africa/
How Space-based Systems Can Improve Healthcare Delivery In Africa
By
Harold Ayetey & Julia Selman Ayetey -
March 20, 2020
The last decade has seen improvements in a number of African health indicators including child and maternal mortality rates. However, despite being home to over a quarter of the global disease burden, Africa has only 2% of the world’s doctors. Technology and innovation are essential in efforts to rapidly meet its healthcare needs, including improving life expectancy across the continent – currently 61.2 years in Sub-Saharan Africa versus 77.5 years in Europe. These numbers are, in part, driven by low levels of investment in healthcare facilities and human resources. Poor health indicators such as these have a negative impact on the labour force which stifles economic growth across the continent.
The incredible success of Africa’s ‘Mobile Phone Revolution’ which brought commercial banking services to over 60% of Africans with no access to banks has been widely touted. It is easy to imagine how a ‘Healthcare Revolution’ supported by space-based systems could transform healthcare in Africa, where ground-based infrastructure is often limited, substandard or absent.
The majority of medical professionals in Africa live and work in urban areas, resulting in a deficiency of care in rural areas, where the majority of Africans still live. This is further exacerbated by poor transport networks which make access to healthcare, particularly emergency medical services, difficult. The use of fast and reliable space-based telemedicine platforms by medical personnel to prevent, diagnose and treat patients in geographically distinct locations could be transformative for Africa. Imagery from Earth observation satellites can be used to monitor the numbers and movements of mosquitoes carrying malaria parasites and other disease vectors to help prevent disease outbreaks. Earth observation imagery can predict crop failure due to floods, and thus help prevent or prepare for droughts and their sequelae of malnutrition and mass starvation. Access to, and control of, space-based technologies, which often operate through satellites, are therefore important to modern healthcare development efforts on the continent.
_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011
Alternatively, we could put a poverty cap on poor people that triggers an intervention by a government life coach.
"You're poor, and that's not OK".
"What are you doing to improve your situation?"
"What are your roadblocks?"
"How can I help you find a job?"
"Where is your money going?"
"How can I help you get smarter with money?"
_________________
Then a hero comes along, with the strength to carry on, and you cast your fears aside, and you know you can survive.
Be the hero of your life.
It can be new technology which allows medical research to happen.
It can be new technology which allows medical care to be advanced or even exist;
https://africanews.space/how-space-base ... in-africa/
True, very true. I just meant that if the aim of the new technology is something like faster traveling or new ways to spend one's freetime, I'd rather have the money used on finding ways to save lives.
"You're poor, and that's not OK".
"What are you doing to improve your situation?"
"What are your roadblocks?"
"How can I help you find a job?"
"Where is your money going?"
"How can I help you get smarter with money?"
Good idea, but with this there would still be a risk that people aren't looked at as individuals enough, like disabilities not taken in to account enough. These coaches would need to be highly educated, and there should be ones specialized in coaching people with different disabilities, including compinations of some disabilities, for it to work for more than just to the average people, especially since a disabeled person is far likelier to be poor than none disabled. And if the coaching doesn't help, how would we decide if the one at fault is the coach, the client or the system?
Since a good chunk of Bezos' wealth comes from investments in wildly succesful businesses probably the fastest way is to have the government seize control of those businesses and void all stock for Amazon, Google, Uber, Twitter, the newsmedia ...
The company's share price reflects this phenomenal growth. The stock increased nearly 500% from September 2015 to September 2020 and rose 60% between January and September of 2020 alone. Bezos owned about 15.1% of the two decade-old company as of 2020, making it the biggest source of his wealth.
In the travel sector, Bezos has invested $112 million and $35 million, respectively, in series B financing of Airbnb and transportation service Uber. Bezos is a big believer in the cloud, as evidenced by Amazon's major push into providing cloud computing services. However, his investment interest does not end with his own company. One of his notable investment successes is Workday, Inc., a company that provides human resource services in the cloud. Shortly after Bezos' venture capital investment in the company, it went public in an initial public offering (IPO) that garnered $684 million. In the sphere of a more traditional retail business, Bezos has also invested in Glassybaby, a company that makes glass-blown holders for votive candles.
From https://www.investopedia.com/investing/ ... chest-man/
_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011
This entire thread seems based on the premise that there is a finite amount of wealth -- a "Zero-Sum Game".
In reality, this is not the case -- we are not living on a Monopoly™ game-board.
The fact that I have ten dollars in my pocket and you have only ten cents does not mean that there is only $10.10 in the entire world, nor does it mean that I am hoarding any of your money. It only means that I have $9.90 more than you, and implies that if you want some of my money, you need to earn it.
Let us say there are 7,800,000,000 people in the world. Let us also say that the total global wealth is $360,603,000,000,000. This comes to a one-time total of $46,231.15 for each person's "fair share" of global wealth.
Then let us say that on January 1st, 2021, everybody's accounts are zeroed out, and re-allocated with exactly $46,231.15 for the remainder of the year.
What happens next?
I imagine that those who know how to invest well will shortly double their wealth, those who can manage their money well will have enough for the entire year, and those who have no common sense at all will burn through all of their allotment before the year is even half over.
Everyone starts out equal, yet some gain wealth, some lose wealth, and some stay the same. Is this fair?
In reality, this is not the case -- we are not living on a Monopoly™ game-board.
The fact that I have ten dollars in my pocket and you have only ten cents does not mean that there is only $10.10 in the entire world, nor does it mean that I am hoarding any of your money. It only means that I have $9.90 more than you, and implies that if you want some of my money, you need to earn it.
Let us say there are 7,800,000,000 people in the world. Let us also say that the total global wealth is $360,603,000,000,000. This comes to a one-time total of $46,231.15 for each person's "fair share" of global wealth.
Then let us say that on January 1st, 2021, everybody's accounts are zeroed out, and re-allocated with exactly $46,231.15 for the remainder of the year.
What happens next?
I imagine that those who know how to invest well will shortly double their wealth, those who can manage their money well will have enough for the entire year, and those who have no common sense at all will burn through all of their allotment before the year is even half over.
Everyone starts out equal, yet some gain wealth, some lose wealth, and some stay the same. Is this fair?
There is a finite amount of money in the world. Are you honestly arguing that everyone who is currently alive can become a millionaire?
_________________
"If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced."
-XFG (no longer a moderator)
_________________
Let's not confuse being normal with being mentally healthy.
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