Trump acquitted of impeachment charges.

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Pepe
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14 Feb 2021, 5:19 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Biscuitman wrote:

With the infighting in the Republican party and a split between those that support a Trump style leader and those that dont, they have presented the Dems with the chance of a lifetime, to put the Republicans out into the wilderness for a long time

While I agree a one party democrat run system is not as bad as the current two party system with one party mostly authoritarian we must remember the lesser of two evils is evil. The current danger to democracy is more obvious and immediate. Democracy will wither away with a long term one party system. Especially a party with a illiberal wing.

We have two realistic very bad possibilities at this point. The Republican party stays Trump’s party. They are not as much in the wilderness as claimed. The Senate is 50-50, The House is close and Republicans control of a lot of the state houses. The authoritarian party regaining one or both houses of congress in 2022, and somebody with the last name of Trump being elected in 2024 is very plausible. The other option is the Republican party splitting between the Trumpians and classic conservatives which would assure absolute dem control for the foreseeable future. I just do not see any path for the republicans reverting back to classic conservatism. If the events between November 3 and yesterday did not do it nothing will.

I just want a competent government. The GOP has lost that a long time ago. Note, Democratic administations tend to be more fiscally conservative to Republican ones. It turns out that tax and spend makes better policy than borrow and spend. I am just tired of Republican administrations messing up our economy for the Democrats to fix.

Based on the information at hand, the economy was doing very well under the Trump administration before the covid hit. BTW, I want Trump and Co. gone from American politics.

Pepe
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14 Feb 2021, 5:23 pm

Fnord wrote:

Biscuitman wrote:

I certainly hope so.

It will be interesting to see how the Democrats run the country.
I wish them all the best.
Have I mentioned I live in Australia and I'm not a spring chicken any longer?

Pepe
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14 Feb 2021, 5:29 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Biscuitman wrote:

Perhaps the entire world will become socialist, eventually.
I just hope it isn't Ingsoc who is in control.

Meh.
Not my problem since I don't have any offspring. :mrgreen:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

We have two realistic very bad possibilities at this point. The Republican party stays Trump’s party. They are not as much in the wilderness as claimed. The Senate is 50-50, The House is close and Republicans control of a lot of the state houses. The authoritarian party regaining one or both houses of congress in 2022, and somebody with the last name of Trump being elected in 2024 is very plausible. The other option is the Republican party splitting between the Trumpians and classic conservatives which would assure absolute dem control for the foreseeable future. I just do not see any path for the republicans reverting back to classic conservatism. If the events between November 3 and yesterday did not do it nothing will.

Trump lost a lot of support, due to his shite-stirring that encouraged the capitol hill riot.
To suggest all Republicans are fascist Trump supporters is a binary nonsense.

Jiheisho
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14 Feb 2021, 5:51 pm

Pepe wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Biscuitman wrote:

Based on the information at hand, the economy was doing very well under the Trump administration before the covid hit. BTW, I want Trump and Co. gone from American politics.

Typical for Republican administrations (Reagan, Bush I & II), the deficit increased significantly. Normally, the economic consensus is you want to pay down the deficit while the economy is doing well, so when you have a crisis, a pandemic, for example, you have resources to use in that crisis. That did not happen. Republicans increased deficit spending through tax cuts (no one needed) and increases in government spending. So by cutting revenues and increasing spending, Republicans have again mismanaged the government and the ability of the government to act when the economy needs it.

As far as the economy in general, Trumps trade wars have not helped the US economy. Here is an estimate from the Brookings Institute, a conservative think tank (personally, I don't like think tanks, but it gets at the spirit of the thing).

More pain than gain: How the US-China trade war hurt America

I don't know if you remember the great deal Trump promoted for Foxconn (ironic name), which included huge tax cuts and promoted by the Republican state politicians? Well, it did not turn out too well:

'They demolished my house for this?' Residents outraged by the Foxconn factory that fizzled

I think the overall assessment is that maybe this administration did not do as well as all that.

The Trump organization may have made a killing (no pun intended, or at least not in bad taste).

Last edited by Jiheisho on 14 Feb 2021, 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ASPartOfMe
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14 Feb 2021, 6:27 pm

quaker wrote:

Could anyone please tell me the logic behind the Republican party allowing Trump to run again and thus split their vote come the next election?

Fear. Fear of the Trump wing of the party putting up a candidate that will beat them in the primary. Fear of violence against themselves and their families.

QFT wrote:

TheRobotLives wrote:

Trump got 72.22 million votes.

That is more votes than any president before him.

Same goes for Biden. Both sides got more votes than any president before them because the election was very polarized and turnout was high.

But ultimately the votes on both sides were about Trump, not about Biden (votes for Biden were really votes against Trump given that there is nothing so impressive about a really old man with possible dimensia). So Trump is both the most loved and most hated at the same time. Most loved by one side, and most hated by the other side. Which explains the highest number of votes both candidates got.

^^^^
This

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ASPartOfMe
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14 Feb 2021, 6:56 pm

Jiheisho wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Biscuitman wrote:

Based on the information at hand, the economy was doing very well under the Trump administration before the covid hit. BTW, I want Trump and Co. gone from American politics.

Typical for Republican administrations (Reagan, Bush I & II), the deficit increased significantly. Normally, the economic consensus is you want to pay down the deficit while the economy is doing well, so when you have a crisis, a pandemic, for example, you have resources to use in that crisis. That did not happen. Republicans increased deficit spending through tax cuts (no one needed) and increases in government spending. So buy cutting revenues and increasing spending, Republicans have again mismanaged the government and the ability of the government to act when the economy needs it.

As far as the economy in general, Trumps trade wars have not helped the US economy. Here is an estimate from the Brookings Institute, a conservative think tank (personally, I don't like think tanks, but it gets at the spirit of the thing).

More pain than gain: How the US-China trade war hurt America

I don't know if you remember the great deal Trump promoted for Foxconn (ironic name), which included huge tax cuts and promoted by the Republican state politicians? Well, it did not turn out too well:

'They demolished my house for this?' Residents outraged by the Foxconn factory that fizzled

I think the overall assessment is that maybe this administration did not do as well as all that.

The Trump organization may have made a killing (no pun intended, or at least not in bad taste).

Deficit hawks, Deficit hawks, did they even exist?

While Biden comes from the era of Carter and Clinton, fiscal conservatism his party, and these times are different. You have a socialist and a social justice base that are much larger than back then. COVID has sped up economic dislocation. And we are fatally addicted to "too big to fail " We had a chance to do something about it at the time of the great recession but nobody was willing to endure the economic collapse that would have entailed so instead we rewarded the criminals who did that to us with TARP and bailouts instead of jailing them. So now the problem is worse despite nobody talking about it. 99 percent of the people are not at fault for the pandemic so how can you punish them by being deficit hawks now?

Last edited by ASPartOfMe on 14 Feb 2021, 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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14 Feb 2021, 6:57 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

quaker wrote:

Could anyone please tell me the logic behind the Republican party allowing Trump to run again and thus split their vote come the next election?

Fear. Fear of the Trump wing of the party putting up a candidate that will beat them in the primary. Fear of violence against themselves and their families.

Do you seriously think a party run by "fear" of their electorate who put blind faith in a madman is going to be sustainable? Trump has been conditioned to expect that he can commit any criminal act he wants and he'll be exonerated by congress.

ASPartOfMe
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14 Feb 2021, 7:00 pm

cyberdad wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

quaker wrote:

Could anyone please tell me the logic behind the Republican party allowing Trump to run again and thus split their vote come the next election?

Fear. Fear of the Trump wing of the party putting up a candidate that will beat them in the primary. Fear of violence against themselves and their families.

Nothing lasts forever but authoritarians parties have lasted quite a while.

Jiheisho
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14 Feb 2021, 7:14 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Well, how much do you want to bet Mitch McConnell will now be a deficit hawk? Losing power does that to deficit hawks.

No, it is not the time to worry about the deficit (that should have been done when unemployment was low and the economy was doing well). Our response to the 2008 recession was pitiful (and I am being generous). But people like Warren are still talking about it.

The last administration set such a low bar in relation to pandemic response, this new one just needs to turn up to the office every day to do better. Still, it looks like there is going to be a real focus and effort on this. But given the structure of US pluralism, it will not be easy.

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14 Feb 2021, 8:05 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Fear. Fear of the Trump wing of the party putting up a candidate that will beat them in the primary.

If it was "only" about fear, there would be no way for him to beat them in primary.

cyberdad
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15 Feb 2021, 12:42 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

quaker wrote:

Could anyone please tell me the logic behind the Republican party allowing Trump to run again and thus split their vote come the next election?

Fear. Fear of the Trump wing of the party putting up a candidate that will beat them in the primary. Fear of violence against themselves and their families.

Nothing lasts forever but authoritarians parties have lasted quite a while.

It's curious whether the United States has evolved a mainstream culture that craves a nationalistic dictatorship?

Phoenix20
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15 Feb 2021, 12:50 am

57-43. Needed 10 more Republicans to find Trump guilty. Republicans feared political fallout from finding Trump guilty.

cyberdad
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15 Feb 2021, 1:11 am

Phoenix20 wrote:

57-43. Needed 10 more Republicans to find Trump guilty. Republicans feared political fallout from finding Trump guilty.

Wasn't exactly a landslide for Trump. Explains the anger/venom in Trump Jr's attack on republicans who he claims "conspired" with democrats

Pepe
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15 Feb 2021, 1:21 am

Jiheisho wrote:

Pepe wrote:

Jiheisho wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Biscuitman wrote:

Based on the information at hand, the economy was doing very well under the Trump administration before the covid hit. BTW, I want Trump and Co. gone from American politics.

The tax cut was designed to encourage business back to America, which it did.
Our PM was pissed that an Australian billionaire invested in America as a result of the low tax rate, down to 21%, I believe.

As a result, there were more jobs created in America and a big beneficiary was the coloured demographic.

Jiheisho wrote:

As far as the economy in general, Trumps trade wars have not helped the US economy. Here is an estimate from the Brookings Institute, a conservative think tank (personally, I don't like think tanks, but it gets at the spirit of the thing).

More pain than gain: How the US-China trade war hurt America

I believe Trump focused on not involving America in 'unnecessary' wars, presumably to reduce the financial burden.
Trump was not a warmonger, but a businessman and focused on the areas which would eventually pay dividends such as the growing manufacturing industry.

The Trump administration also made Nato pay their way, so it was reported, and that would have helped the financial situation also. Maybe not significantly, but better than nothing.

Please be aware, I am not interested in a spin/counter-spin argument, and won't be engaging in one.
Let us agree to disagree.

Jiheisho wrote:

I don't know if you remember the great deal Trump promoted for Foxconn (ironic name), which included huge tax cuts and promoted by the Republican state politicians? Well, it did not turn out too well:

'They demolished my house for this?' Residents outraged by the Foxconn factory that fizzled

I never heard of it.
I have no reason to believe what you have provided isn't accurate.

We have had many bungles here in Australia, also.
The submarine fiasco time 2.
The first one was inspired by politically supporting Christopher Pines position in Australia.
Disgraceful.
This is politics and shite happens on both sides of the political divide.

For example, Michael Moor's documentary exposed how a forest industry(?) for energy was designed to support the reductions of CO2 actually caused more emission.
And the documentary exposed how solar farms and wind farms were left to 'rot' when they became ineffective.

It was 'interesting' that big business came out the winner in these shonky schemes.

Jiheisho wrote:

I think the overall assessment is that maybe this administration did not do as well as all that.

The Trump organization may have made a killing (no pun intended, or at least not in bad taste).

Before the red state virus, it was believed Trump was a shoo-in, but he stuffed up the pandemic situation so bad he lost the election.

Anyway, he is gone now, and good riddance, I say.
But it looks like we haven't seen the end of trump and Co. unfortunately.

Pepe
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15 Feb 2021, 1:23 am

Phoenix20 wrote:

57-43. Needed 10 more Republicans to find Trump guilty. Republicans feared political fallout from finding Trump guilty.

It was never going to happen because of politics.

Pepe
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15 Feb 2021, 1:27 am

cyberdad wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

quaker wrote:

Could anyone please tell me the logic behind the Republican party allowing Trump to run again and thus split their vote come the next election?

Fear. Fear of the Trump wing of the party putting up a candidate that will beat them in the primary. Fear of violence against themselves and their families.

The leftist riots worked well for Trump.
The idea of "Law and order' was exploited to the hilt.
The democrats were initially supporting the movement but changed their tune when it became clear that is was taking support away from them.

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