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War in Ukraine: both sides are wrong

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QFT
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16 May 2022, 11:32 am

AngelRho wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
QFT wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Aside from gas disputes, which is an economic and trade issue, not a military issue, Russian and Ukraine have little to do with each other.


They have historic and cultural ties.

The United States and the UK have historic and cultural ties, so can’t we just invade the UK?

.

Actually its more like the UK invading us...to restore the British Empire, and reverse the American revolution.

But that you mention it...I think that the Queen SHOULD invade us. And rescue us Americans from ... [ whatever poltical group you mostdislike]......the KKK, Black Lives Matter, QAnon, Antifa, Boogie Boys, whatever. Just like Putin is just ...selflessly invading Ukraine in order to rescue the Ukrainians from that handful of neo Nazis they have. And why he is kindly and selflessly bombing, and shelling, the crap out of the Ukrainians! :lol:

I picked the US picking on the UK precisely because of the absurdity of the whole thing. However, Russians aren't wrong if they claim Oleg and Kievan Rus as their cultural heritage. Putin has mentioned a religious motivation for absorbing Ukraine as a propaganda device--but, again, Putin isn't exactly wrong about the facts here. I think he's lying about his true intentions. Still, Russia does have a religious and cultural interest in Ukraine from the point of view that the Russian people do have historical ties to Ukraine. The United States could just as easily justify annexing the UK by saying that the successes of the republic justify rescuing the British from the Crown. Given the strength and resolve of the British, invading the UK would probably work out just as well as Russia invading Ukraine...

...except...

NATO. The collective strength of NATO in Europe would challenge US military supremacy, hence deterring the US from doing something like that. Similarly, a unilateral invasion of the US wouldn't go over so well since, like Russia, we also possess a strong nuclear deterrent. Any nation outside NATO would prefer that the US not even have reason to suspect any citizen even THINK bad thoughts about the US lest they become another Iraq or Afghanistan.


Maybe US invading Canada is even better idea ... at least they are geographically close and I believe more similar.

By the way I don't think Russia would care one way or the other if US invades the UK or Canada. So neither should US care if Russia invades Ukraine.

As long as countries are just expanding their own historic territories then at least there are no international conflicts on bigger scales. US invading Canada or Russia invading Ukraine doesn't sound as threatening as a conflict between the west and arabic world -- *unless* of course you *choose* to make those things international like NATO chose to do with the Ukraine.

I am not advocating US invading Canada by the way. Just saying it wouldn't have to be an international crisis if everyone keeps to their business.



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16 May 2022, 11:35 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yes, the Soviet Union was a great contributor in defeating the Nazis----both directly and indirectly. They were heroic in Stalingrad---that was the turning point of the war.

I never said they weren't a "great contributor."

But you can't deny that the US played a paramount role in defeating the Nazis.



USA gave all the weapons, equipment and money to Russia in order to defeat the nazis



QFT
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16 May 2022, 11:35 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Yes, the Soviet Union was a great contributor in defeating the Nazis----both directly and indirectly. They were heroic in Stalingrad---that was the turning point of the war.

I never said they weren't a "great contributor."

But you can't deny that the US played a paramount role in defeating the Nazis.


Soviets lost 20 million soldiers. Americans didn't lose anything anywhere close to that.



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16 May 2022, 11:36 am

BlossX wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
Yes, the Soviet Union was a great contributor in defeating the Nazis----both directly and indirectly. They were heroic in Stalingrad---that was the turning point of the war.

I never said they weren't a "great contributor."

But you can't deny that the US played a paramount role in defeating the Nazis.



USA gave all the weapons, equipment and money to Russia in order to defeat the nazis


I think US only began to help at the time when nazis were basically losing. Up until then, US strategically avoided helping since they were hoping Soviets and Nazis would kill each other off so they would get rid of both problems at once without any sacrifices of their own. But then when Nazis were losing, then Americans suddenly wanted to help so that they could take credit for winning the war.



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16 May 2022, 12:05 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
QFT wrote:
3) Hitler planned to kill all the Jews and enslave all the slavs. Putin isn't planning this

Although not necessarily related to Putin and The Russian Federation, historical Russia has a very bad history of genocide/massacre.

In 1784, the massacre of Koniag Alutiiq.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awa%27uq_Massacre
Quote:
The Russian promyshlennikis attacked the people on the island by shooting guns and cannons, slaughtering an estimated 200 to 500 men, women and children on Refuge Rock. Some sources state the number killed was as many as 2,000, or 3,000 persons. Following the attack of Awa'uq, Shelikhov claimed to have captured over 1,000 people, detaining some 400 as hostages, including children. The Russians suffered no casualties.


In 1900, the massacre of Chinese, including Manchu, Daur and Han.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1900_Amur_anti-Chinese_pogroms
Quote:
Those who could swim were shot by the Russian forces.There were 1,266 households, including 900 Daurs and 4,500 Manchus in the area until the massacre. Many Manchu villages were burned by Cossacks in the massacre according to Victor Zatsepine.

There have also been mass expulsions of Chinese before.

In 1916, the massacre of the Turkic residents of Central Asia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asian_revolt_of_1916
Quote:
The revolt led to the exodus of hundreds of thousands of Kyrgyz and Kazakhs into China, while the suppression of the revolt by the Imperial Russian Army led to around 100,000 to 270,000 deaths.
...
Special importance is given to the event in Kyrgyz historiography due to the fact that perhaps has many as 40% of the ethnic Kyrgyz population died during or in the aftermath of the revolt.


The above are just three of the quickest examples I can find.
I am not sure about the official attitude of the Russian Federation to these events.


I can't say one way or the other anything about that, I don't know middle age history very well. But lots of countries were doing lots of stuff back in middle ages. I don't think its fair to punish them in the 21-st century for that.



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16 May 2022, 12:08 pm

^ None of the above was Middle Ages.
But if you want something from earlier Russian record, here you are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Novgorod
That was something even for these times.
Later record?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
Still in living memory is some places.


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16 May 2022, 12:37 pm

The Great Purge was less than 100 years ago.

Arthur Koestler wrote a famous novel about what was going on during the Great Purge.

Many people died just because the Russian Elite wanted to manipulate the "masses." Stalin was paranoid in the extreme. Khrushchev denounced Stalin.



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16 May 2022, 12:38 pm

magz wrote:
^ None of the above was Middle Ages.
But if you want something from earlier Russian record, here you are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Novgorod
That was something even for these times.
Later record?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
Still in living memory is some places.


I am aware about holodomor and certainly about 1937 purge. I haven't heard about some of the other things you listed.

Still, Putin isn't about to do any of those things either.

And by the way I never said that Germany would repeat what Hitler did or anything like that. The only reason I compared Putin to Hitler was because some other people on this thread did, so I refutted their allegation that he is the same by pointing out the differences.



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16 May 2022, 12:46 pm

I NEVER said Putin was Hitler. They are different. But they are similar, too.

I'm saying the historical forces that are happening with Putin are similar to the historical forces which were happening with Hitler in the 1930s. History is repeating itself. The West appeased Putin in 2014, just like the West appeased Hitler in 1938. Both Putin and Hitler invaded sovereign countries; Hitler offered the excuse that Germans were being oppressed; Putin offers the excuse that Russians are being oppressed.

I certainly don't believe Putin would kills millions of Jews and Slavs and put them in concentration camps. But he is doing similar things, though with less deaths (doesn't lessen the impact, though), in Ukraine. This has been documented; there is no doubt about this.



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16 May 2022, 12:48 pm

QFT wrote:
I can't say one way or the other anything about that, I don't know middle age history very well. But lots of countries were doing lots of stuff back in middle ages. I don't think its fair to punish them in the 21-st century for that.

The latter two, as well as the examples magz provides, are around WW1 and WW2.
Namely, modern history.

Punishment is one thing. But it's another matter to never compensate or even apologize for it.
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Of course, many countries don't either. Especially those whose victims do not belong to Europe.

Rejecting history often leads to history repeating itself.


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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 16 May 2022, 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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16 May 2022, 12:50 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
QFT wrote:
I can't say one way or the other anything about that, I don't know middle age history very well. But lots of countries were doing lots of stuff back in middle ages. I don't think its fair to punish them in the 21-st century for that.

The latter two, as well as the examples magz provides, are around WW1 and WW2.
Namely, modern history. Punishment is one thing. But it's another matter to never compensate or even apologize for it.
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Of course, many countries don't either. Especially those whose victims do not belong to Europe.


Still, Putin isn't Lenin or Stalin. Lots have changed.



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16 May 2022, 12:55 pm

QFT wrote:
Still, Putin isn't Lenin or Stalin. Lots have changed.

"That person" has changed.
But if you are not against those executors, don't do much to remove their influence. Even you are claiming to inherit their "inheritance".
It's not very convincing that you're also against what they've done.


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Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 16 May 2022, 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

QFT
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16 May 2022, 12:56 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The West appeased Putin in 2014, just like the West appeased Hitler in 1938.


I see the parallel, but that doesn't mean the impact is the same. Because Hitler is far more dangerous than Putin.

kraftiekortie wrote:
Hitler offered the excuse that Germans were being oppressed; Putin offers the excuse that Russians are being oppressed.


Actually, I have to say they were both right. Even though Hitler was a monster, he can still be right in SOME things he says, such as Germany was oppressed.

Germany lost World War 1, Russia lost Cold War. They were both trying to "undo" the fact that they lost. I sympathize with losing side trying to "undo" it and win.

But of course that doesn't justify Hitler killing Jews or wanting to enslave the rest of the world. Neither does it justify Putin making nuclear threats either.

So I guess my take on it is that both Putin and Hitler should be given a chance to take back what they lost and stop there.

kraftiekortie wrote:
I certainly don't believe Putin would kills millions of Jews and Slavs and put them in concentration camps. But he is doing similar things, though with less deaths (doesn't lessen the impact, though)


How can you say it doesn't lessen the impact? I think less deaths certainly does.



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16 May 2022, 12:57 pm

SkinnedWolf wrote:
QFT wrote:
Still, Putin isn't Lenin or Stalin. Lots have changed.

"That person" has changed.
But if you are not against those executors, even when claiming to take their "legacy".
It's not very convincing that you're also against what they've done.


I am against 1937 purge and holodomor. I never said that I wasn't. The only reason I didn't mention it before is that it wasn't a topic of this thread.



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16 May 2022, 1:01 pm

QFT wrote:
SkinnedWolf wrote:
QFT wrote:
Still, Putin isn't Lenin or Stalin. Lots have changed.

"That person" has changed.
But if you are not against those executors, even when claiming to take their "legacy".
It's not very convincing that you're also against what they've done.


I am against 1937 purge and holodomor. I never said that I wasn't. The only reason I didn't mention it before is that it wasn't a topic of this thread.

"You" can think so.
But I'm describing Putin's behavior.


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16 May 2022, 1:08 pm

QFT wrote:
So I guess my take on it is that both Putin and Hitler should be given a chance to take back what they lost and stop there.

If you don't have the same support for other regions that were genocide/massacred also take back what they "lost".
(For example, Russia stole more than 1.5 million/5.8 million square kilometers of territory from China and "cleansed" it so there was no trace of the Chinese at all. Or the whole of Eastern Europe that was stolen.)
I don't think your claim has any value.


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