This is an opinion that was sent to me about patriarchy.

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blitzkrieg
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28 Nov 2023, 12:47 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Here's some info regarding parental responsibility in England.

https://www.gov.uk/parental-rights-resp ... onsibility


For the record I was not defending Twilight because you consider her to be my friend. I was showing respect to all mothers and fathers for the tremendous effort it takes to raise a child well. That includes single fathers, like my exb who raised three boys on his own, or my brother who fostered and then adopted a little boy and raised him on his own for the past 27 years.

Your attitude that parenting is relatively "easy" comes from a place of privilege, considering you haven't been gifted a newborn to raise on your own through its adulthood. It's quite disrespectful toward the men you aim to support in your posts.


I said in so many words, that parenting isn't the hardest job in the world, initially in response to claims by TP that it is/was.

I didn't say it was easy.

It would be nice if you didn't put words in my mouth.



MatchboxVagabond
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28 Nov 2023, 12:54 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
I've heard that before. It ignores the fact that men do have to seek it out, men don't get automatic recognition as parent in the US, not sure about the UK, and there are plenty of men that do ask for it and don't get it anyways.


My husband walked out on us when our son was three. Our daughter was six months and I was still a nursing mum on maternity leave. I was told by many people that "no court in the land" would give him custody because of the children's young ages, and maternal bias. Furthermore there was a documented history of him abusing our son mentally and physically. Still, I was forced to give him joint physical and legal custody, because of laws supporting fathers' rights.

I fully appreciate the importance of (good) fathers in children's lives but this arrangement was not satisfactory to my kids. I won't even elaborate how difficult it was for two autistic babies who craved routine and consistency to be shuttled between two homes and two parenting styles, in addition to spending 50 hours per week in daycare centres. When I objected to this Order I was forced to pay for a $25,000 comprehensive custody assessment. He did not have to pay because he hadn't requested the study. The children were given their own lawyers and psychologists. There were home visits, daycare visits, and even grandparent visits, as well as psychological studies on both of us as parents. My ex was deemed to be a danger to the children and it was recommended that he have no more than a few hours per week of social-work-supervised access to the kids. He was also ordered to attend ongoing psychiatric care and ongoing parenting classes lest he lose all parenting rights. The only recommendation for me, was that I should be encouraged to improve my communication skills in times where I required self-advocacy. My ex-h refused to follow the resulting court Order regarding psychiatric care, and he did not return my children from his 50-50 scheduled access. Nor did he pay the court-ordered support which I'd required to keep their stable home.

Just ranting, I guess ... but I thought it was topical to share. This shows there is not a bias toward mothers, even when they are still nursing, when the kids are very young, or when the mother is proven to be the better parent by court-appointed evaluation.

Family law gets very complicated. It is going to vary from place to place, within the US there's 50 different state courts that make such decisions. But, from what I've read in the paperwork for a divorce, there's a definite bias in favor of having men be assigned responsibility just by virtue of the soon to be ex-wife being pregnant or having given birth during the marriage for the purposes of child support, but not so much when it comes to getting custody. And it can be a struggle to be declared to not be the father if his name is on the birth certificate due to paternity fraud.

It is also my understanding that with a good attorney the father can usually get some degree of custody, but, getting custody varies a lot in terms of having any time at all is technically custody in that respect.

IsabellaLinton wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:

I don't know that there's bias when the father does request parenting rights, but the fact that men are the ones that have to ask, is definitely a major source of bias that needs to be fixed.


What do you mean, they have to ask? If the parents can't determine custody amicably out of court or through family mediation / arbitration, both parents need to "ask" for legal assistance.

They need to pay for it, too.

The men need to pay for it typically whether they want the custody or not.

The whole thing winds up being pretty complicated in terms of statistics:
https://www.justgreatlawyers.com/legal- ... statistics but on the whole across most of the numbers there, it does appear that there's a pattern where the mothers get better outcomes than the fathers do. The degree to which that's bias is a matter of opinion, but some of the numbers are really far off.

But, there's a definite disconnect if only about half of the couples think the mother should be the custodial parent, but 80% of the time it is the mother that winds up being the custodial parent. 4x as often the child only lives with the mother rather than just with the father.



TwilightPrincess
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28 Nov 2023, 12:56 pm

^^ Read carefully:

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Is it “other people’s money” if the woman is engaged in unpaid labor in the home, like child rearing - one of the most demanding jobs there is?


I didn’t say that it was the most demanding job there is. That’s not been objectively measured. People can’t possibly conceive how difficult it is to be a parent until they’ve been one, though. Most parents will tell you that it’s difficult, if not the most difficult job there is. I’ve had various jobs over the years, and it’s by far the most challenging one I’ve ever had, and I’ve had some hard jobs.

It’s a good idea for people to avoid invalidating someone else’s experience, especially regarding something they’ve not experienced.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 28 Nov 2023, 1:06 pm, edited 8 times in total.

MatchboxVagabond
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28 Nov 2023, 12:58 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Before birth there isn't really a good way of not giving the woman being pregnant all that power, but there's no good reason to allow women to have the right to place babies up for adoption without either paternal permission or a valid police report indicating some form of safety concern.


Police don't need to report safety concerns for a mother to determine the child's best interest, or her own limitations for parenting.

In response I'd say there's no good reason to allow any parent to walk out on their children, abuse their children, default on their financial responsibilities, and / or violate of court orders regarding custody and costs. I know you didn't say this was acceptable, but it happens nonetheless.

This is why I asked for input on family law reform. I've yet to hear any constructive solutions for improving and ensuring the rights of children worldwide.

They need that because why should a mother be allowed to give the kid up for adoption without having the permission of the father? There's all this BS out there about how men don't want to be fathers, but how do you know if a man would want to be without asking? There's no law preventing a child from being put up for adoption in the case where both parents agree. So, what's the harm in requiring notice? This isn't about the needs of the child, this is about the needs of the mother to be an irresponsible jackwagon. Even under the best of circumstances, being adopted can result in unanswerable questions like risk of heritable illnesses.



blitzkrieg
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28 Nov 2023, 1:10 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
^^ Read carefully:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
Is it “other people’s money” if the woman is engaged in unpaid labor in the home, like child rearing - one of the most demanding jobs there is?


I didn’t say that it was the most demanding job there is. That’s not been objectively measured. People can’t possibly conceive how difficult it is to be a parent until they’ve been one, though. Most parents will tell you that it’s difficult, if not the most difficult job there is. I’ve had various jobs over the years, and it’s by far the most challenging one I’ve ever had, and I’ve had some hard jobs.

It’s a good idea for people to avoid invalidating someone else’s experience, especially regarding something they’ve not experienced.


Okay, then, in my opinion it isn't even one of of the most demanding jobs that there is.

Considering how many utterly complex jobs there are that exist, it is bordering on ridiculous to say that being a parent is the one of the hardest jobs.

A person with a low IQ can parent, but what about something like air traffic controlling? Or being a pilot of a commercial airplane, for example?

Anyway, I'm not going to further argue this point. I consider you to be wrong in this matter.



TwilightPrincess
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28 Nov 2023, 1:14 pm

You are demonstrating that you are incredibly naïve and ill-informed about this topic.

Yes, most people can become parents biologically, but that doesn’t mean that parenting is easy, especially if your goal is to be a good parent.

Jobs can be challenging in different ways - physically, mentally, emotionally, and in any combination of those. Just because you don’t believe that parenting is “rocket science” doesn’t mean that it’s not incredibly difficult.



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28 Nov 2023, 1:18 pm

I did not comment on MV's adoption concern, or take a side. My brother and I adopted a child, and there are several adopted people in my family, including a very dear friend who is terminally ill. Adoption and abortion law are a separate matter to what we've been discussing, which in itself is separate to the OP's thread topic.

As for parenting being difficult, please note what parenting means. It isn't just spending time with your children and tending to their needs. It might also mean having a career like, for example, being an air traffic controller or a pilot, to pay the expenses related to parenting. It's a package deal - work and parenting. Many parents do demanding jobs like that to support their children or keep their home, whereas they may not seek such a demanding / high paying job if they were single. That's exactly what happened to me. I would not have worked 80 hours a week if not for the needs of my kids.


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TwilightPrincess
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28 Nov 2023, 1:24 pm

Staying at home with kids is hard, too, especially when they’re young. It’s all difficult. Being a parent is a huge responsibility, and it’s 24/7 - working outside the home or not.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 28 Nov 2023, 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

IsabellaLinton
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28 Nov 2023, 1:26 pm

Blitzkrieg wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
MatchboxVagabond wrote:
Before birth there isn't really a good way of not giving the woman being pregnant all that power, but there's no good reason to allow women to have the right to place babies up for adoption without either paternal permission or a valid police report indicating some form of safety concern.


Police don't need to report safety concerns for a mother to determine the child's best interest, or her own limitations for parenting.

In response I'd say there's no good reason to allow any parent to walk out on their children, abuse their children, default on their financial responsibilities, and / or violate of court orders regarding custody and costs. I know you didn't say this was acceptable, but it happens nonetheless.

This is why I asked for input on family law reform. I've yet to hear any constructive solutions for improving and ensuring the rights of children worldwide.


Um, you have quoted a quote from MatchboxVagabond and put my name to his quote.

Can you amend that please?

I didn't say that.


Sorry about that.

Fixed.


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IsabellaLinton
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28 Nov 2023, 1:31 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
Staying at home with kids is hard, too, especially when they’re young. It’s all difficult. Being a parent is a huge responsibility, and it’s 24/7 - working outside the home or not.


Agreed. That goes without saying! My kids are in their 20's and two are still at home. Technically, I'm a stay-at-home parent now even though they're adults. They're considered legal dependents because of their autism and other needs, including my daughter's permanent medical disability. Parenting doesn't stop and for me it's still a 24/7 concern, paying for their home, meeting their emotional needs, dealing with their neurodifferences, and pretending I'm an adult when I'm developmentally delayed myself.


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TwilightPrincess
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28 Nov 2023, 1:33 pm

Parenting isn’t something you ever retire from. Adult children often need various forms of help and assistance from parents.

From infancy on up, there is usually some worry or concern (major and minor) parents have to contend with - pregnancy, labor, and delivery -normal and otherwise, buying necessary baby items, feeding problems related to breastfeeding and otherwise, bonding, growth charts, sicknesses (major and minor), frequent appointments, sleepless nights, early childhood education - at home or preschool, time spent reading, playing, interacting and going to the library, cleaning messes and preparing food, dealing with drama at school, behavioral issues/discipline challenges, perhaps learning challenges and parent meetings with teachers, financial concerns, pets and what goes along with them, issues with friends, breakups, traumatic events, the death of loved ones, preparing them for adulthood, etc. This is only a small list of things. There are many, many more issues parents face, and it never ends.

Being a parent is extremely draining emotionally and exhausting physically at times. It takes intelligence to navigate problems in a beneficial way.



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 28 Nov 2023, 2:27 pm, edited 7 times in total.

DuckHairback
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28 Nov 2023, 2:10 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
You are demonstrating that you are incredibly naïve and ill-informed about this topic.


This.

The moment I became a parent was the moment I stopped thinking I was qualified to tell people about being a parent. I wish I'd known that earlier, it would have saved me making an ass of myself on a few occasions.

I was going to write a long post, but turns out I can't be bothered. Save to say that I've had jobs, and I've had children and they're not even slightly the same thing.


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TwilightPrincess
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28 Nov 2023, 4:12 pm

DuckHairback wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
You are demonstrating that you are incredibly naïve and ill-informed about this topic.


This.

The moment I became a parent was the moment I stopped thinking I was qualified to tell people about being a parent. I wish I'd known that earlier, it would have saved me making an ass of myself on a few occasions.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. :lol:



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28 Nov 2023, 4:45 pm

I don't recall ever thinking I had the qualifications to tell people about being a parent, pre-kids. It didn't even cross my mind that I could have an opinion. I didn't really like playing with dolls. I had some really scary experiences when babysitting. My husband made me write an essay about why I wanted children, my reasons for which he would evaluate to decide. All I remember saying was that it was "the next natural step" -- lol, such an autistic brain.

First comes fake love, then comes doomed marriage, then comes Issy all alone with autistic babies and a gruelling high-pressure career she's ill-equipped to handle, for the rest of her life ....

Does it have a nice ring to it?


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28 Nov 2023, 5:03 pm

 ! Cornflake wrote:
There's been quite a bit of topic drift here, often veering into fruitless "Who has it better?" arguments.

Please keep to the topic, and let's have no more of the A has it better/worse than B noise


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