I'm sick of young Americans obsessing over communism!

Page 4 of 17 [ 258 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 17  Next

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,939
Location:      

08 Dec 2023, 5:49 pm

There is one salient point underlying this entire thread that no one seems to have addressed; at least, not in depth.

Communism has never worked.

Sure, various governments have claimed to be Communist when in reality they were only Socialist States (the States owned the means of production) run by Feudal Governments with despotic dictators in charge.

Even now, the so-called Communist governments are indulging in Capitalism while their 'serfs' live in poverty.



cbryn
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 4 Oct 2023
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 16

08 Dec 2023, 5:57 pm

Fnord wrote:
There is one salient point underlying this entire thread that no one seems to have addressed; at least, not in depth.

Communism has never worked.

Sure, various governments have claimed to be Communist when in reality they were only Socialist States (the States owned the means of production) run by Feudal Governments with despotic dictators in charge.

Even now, the so-called Communist governments are indulging in Capitalism while their 'serfs' live in poverty.


Is not there a present situation in Capitalism for feudalism?



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

08 Dec 2023, 6:44 pm

cbryn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is one salient point underlying this entire thread that no one seems to have addressed; at least, not in depth.

Communism has never worked.

Sure, various governments have claimed to be Communist when in reality they were only Socialist States (the States owned the means of production) run by Feudal Governments with despotic dictators in charge.

Even now, the so-called Communist governments are indulging in Capitalism while their 'serfs' live in poverty.


Is not there a present situation in Capitalism for feudalism?


Can someone please decipher this sentence for me?



cbryn
Butterfly
Butterfly

Joined: 4 Oct 2023
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 16

08 Dec 2023, 7:17 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
cbryn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is one salient point underlying this entire thread that no one seems to have addressed; at least, not in depth.

Communism has never worked.

Sure, various governments have claimed to be Communist when in reality they were only Socialist States (the States owned the means of production) run by Feudal Governments with despotic dictators in charge.

Even now, the so-called Communist governments are indulging in Capitalism while their 'serfs' live in poverty.


Is not there a present situation in Capitalism for feudalism?


Can someone please decipher this sentence for me?


You don't think the cheating built into capitalism (nepotism, inheritance without tax) isn't going to result in feudalism?



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 70
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

08 Dec 2023, 7:27 pm

cbryn wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
cbryn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is one salient point underlying this entire thread that no one seems to have addressed; at least, not in depth.

Communism has never worked.

Sure, various governments have claimed to be Communist when in reality they were only Socialist States (the States owned the means of production) run by Feudal Governments with despotic dictators in charge.

Even now, the so-called Communist governments are indulging in Capitalism while their 'serfs' live in poverty.


Is not there a present situation in Capitalism for feudalism?


Can someone please decipher this sentence for me?


You don't think the cheating built into capitalism (nepotism, inheritance without tax) isn't going to result in feudalism?

Yes it has for a long time resulted in a heriditary ruling class. Something can be caused "oligarchy" or "feudalism".



roronoa79
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Jan 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,390
Location: Indiana

08 Dec 2023, 7:51 pm

RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
RedDeathFlower13 wrote:
All that does is make them weird hypocrites imho. It would be like finding a modern day Nazi who claims to support and defend Jews and everyone telling me I should forget the past and support the Nazi movement. :roll:


Bad comparison.

Antisemitism is at the core of the Nazi ideology.

Meanwhile the USSR was initially well ahead of the west when it came to decriminalizing gay marriage. That doesn't mean the USSR had a good or consistent legacy in this regards, only that opposing gay rights isn't inherent to being a Leninist.

There's plenty of reasons to disagree with tankies without pretending like they're homophobic when they're almost exclusively staunch supporters of gay rights. If your critique has to rely on a dishonest premise it's not a good critique.



You know? I don't see any more reason to waste my time arguing my concerns with useful idiots for Communism. You people are really no less brainwashed than Trump supporters. 2 sides of the same coin and cut from the same cloth. That's all I will say. :roll:

It makes it difficult to take your criticisms of """communism""" seriously when are you this arbitrarily dismissive. Funeralxempire wasn't spouting mehanical, copy-paste doctrine or Marxist academese. All I see is a reasoned, simple argument stating the obvious: homophobia is in no way integral to communism. The homophobia of places like the USSR and Cuba can be attributed to the homophobia already endemic to those places before their revolutions. If homophobia in the Eastern Bloc was primarily a result of communist policy, then why are the conservatives capitalists now in power in Eastern Europe so consistently hostile to queers like you and I? By your logic, wouldn't they embrace queers as fellow victims of communism? No, they did not. Because capitalism goes hand in hand with nationalism ("Equality is stupid!" "I got mine!"); and nationalism goes hand in hand with homophobia ("Queers are anti-God and are sabotaging the birthrate of glorious nation!").
Capitalism is far, far more hostile to queers--or at least is actively indifferent to their suffering. Are you a queer kid who was just kicked out of a conservative home? You get to be homeless, because public housing is for commies! Are you a queer person who was just fired by a bigoted boss? You deserve to be unemployed (and unemployment benefits are for commies!), because the property-owner's will is sacred! Do the businesses in the red-state town you live in refuse to serve queers? Do realtors refuse to sell you a home? Do landlords refuse to take you as tenants? You'd better move, because the right of private business owners to discriminate is way more important than your right to food or shelter!
What exactly does capitalism have to offer queers like me that makes up for its general indifference towards the oppression of.....anybody?


_________________
Diagnoses: AS, Depression, General & Social Anxiety
I guess I just wasn't made for these times.
- Brian Wilson

Δυνατὰ δὲ οἱ προύχοντες πράσσουσι καὶ οἱ ἀσθενεῖς ξυγχωροῦσιν.
Those with power do what their power permits, and the weak can only acquiesce.

- Thucydides


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

08 Dec 2023, 7:53 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Australia once pursued a full employment policy, but are (and were) considered capitalist. This is a rare example though, capitalist economies generally are hostile to full employment.


Out politicians also pursued a "clever country" policy. Despite record numbers doing higher education it doesn't seem to be borne out on the finished produce I see in the universities



funeralxempire
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Oct 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 30,707
Location: Right over your left shoulder

08 Dec 2023, 8:17 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Australia once pursued a full employment policy, but are (and were) considered capitalist. This is a rare example though, capitalist economies generally are hostile to full employment.


Out politicians also pursued a "clever country" policy. Despite record numbers doing higher education it doesn't seem to be borne out on the finished produce I see in the universities


I think that's typical of developed economies. All the kids get pressured (and possibly even helped) to access post-secondary, but we still need people to do jobs that don't justify post-secondary. When too many people are pressured into post-secondary, it starts to resemble a high school full of kids who don't really want to be there, instead of somewhere that everyone worked hard to get into and appreciates getting to participate in.


_________________
The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
They have a name for Nazis that were only Nazis because of economic anxiety or similar issues. They're called Nazis.


cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

08 Dec 2023, 11:46 pm

Higher education is not just about jobs. It's about broadening ones mind. I just don't see it.



NibiruMul
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 1 Dec 2023
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 177
Location: Long Island, New York

09 Dec 2023, 9:02 am

I honestly don't get what attracts people to communism. It's such a depressing, joyless ideology, and it's actually pretty frightening for people who live under communist regimes (especially if they don't support the government). I have yet to see a communist country that doesn't have horrible human rights abuses. However, I don't think young Americans' support for communism is as widespread as many people think it is. Many young Americans at least know the difference between socialism and communism. A country can be socialist and still have good human rights. Look at Sweden and other Scandinavian countries.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

09 Dec 2023, 7:36 pm

NibiruMul wrote:
I honestly don't get what attracts people to communism. It's such a depressing, joyless ideology, and it's actually pretty frightening for people who live under communist regimes (especially if they don't support the government)..


I think philosopher Bertrand Russell accurately defined it as a "phase" young people pass through. I think even Adolph Hitler dabbled in communism after WWI as a young man before joining the Nazis.

In 2023 its just a label, like being a goth, emo, metalhead, gamer, hipster or whatever other label they want to wear. Except there is intellectual component so like being a climate activist, animal activist, BLM supporter, Antifa, MAGA or vegan.

Russell is right, once people start looking for work, putting "communist' on your resume does not exactly open any doors :lol:



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,939
Location:      

10 Dec 2023, 12:47 am

cbryn wrote:
Fnord wrote:
There is one salient point underlying this entire thread that no one seems to have addressed; at least, not in depth.  Communism has never worked.  Sure, various governments have claimed to be Communist when in reality they were only Socialist States (the States owned the means of production) run by Feudal Governments with despotic dictators in charge.  Even now, the so-called Communist governments are indulging in Capitalism while their 'serfs' live in poverty.
Is not there a present situation in Capitalism for feudalism?
At least, under Capitalism, we get to vote for whom we want our oppressors to be.



Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,939
Location:      

10 Dec 2023, 12:49 am

cyberdad wrote:
Higher education is not just about jobs. It's about broadening ones mind. I just don't see it.
When higher education stopped teaching people HOW to think, and started teaching them WHAT to think, that's when the broadening of minds ended, and people started letting other people do their thinking for them.



cyberdad
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Feb 2011
Age: 57
Gender: Male
Posts: 36,036

10 Dec 2023, 1:54 am

Fnord wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Higher education is not just about jobs. It's about broadening ones mind. I just don't see it.
When higher education stopped teaching people HOW to think, and started teaching them WHAT to think, that's when the broadening of minds ended, and people started letting other people do their thinking for them.


Agreed, I think essentially nowadays you either have vocational training or Advanced highschool.



PassingThrough
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jan 2012
Gender: Male
Posts: 87
Location: USA

10 Dec 2023, 1:55 am

Teens and twenty-somethings often have a rebellious stage and want to be unique and edgy. The wannabe communist thing is fertile ground for that. It makes people feel like they know better. Of course, that's not everybody who goes on about communism and anti-capitalism. I've met some young people who seemed like they had put in the work and were proper communists. But for the most part, they'll probably relax into being left-wing capitalists once they get a financial base and realize that they don't want to lose it.

The issue for US citizens who don't want to live in circumstances where the state owns and plan everything is that there are some teachers and professors who are trying to turn the young wannabe communists into real communists.



RedDeathFlower13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Nov 2023
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,709

10 Dec 2023, 2:36 am

PassingThrough wrote:
Teens and twenty-somethings often have a rebellious stage and want to be unique and edgy. The wannabe communist thing is fertile ground for that. It makes people feel like they know better. Of course, that's not everybody who goes on about communism and anti-capitalism. I've met some young people who seemed like they had put in the work and were proper communists. But for the most part, they'll probably relax into being left-wing capitalists once they get a financial base and realize that they don't want to lose it.

The issue for US citizens who don't want to live in circumstances where the state owns and plan everything is that there are some teachers and professors who are trying to turn the young wannabe communists into real communists.


Exactly. That's the part that scares me.


_________________
A flower's life is wilting...