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Zionists Did TERRIBLE Things To Establish A Jewish State

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RetroGamer87
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06 Jul 2024, 8:01 am

roronoa79 wrote:
murdering the people already living there, seizing their lands, making their own colonial-apartheid society, and cordoning Palestinians in tightly-controlled, intentionally impoverished bantustans.


Isn't that what they did when they entered that region during the bronze age? They seized lands and they killed people.


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cyberdad
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06 Jul 2024, 7:57 pm

If you are going back to the Bronze age then all our ancestors did that type of thing.

Setting up a thesis that Israel is beholden to all Palestinian demands following Oct 7th based on past history (e.g. Israel did terrible things a long time ago) is an argument built on shaky foundations.

FE is conveniently ignoring that Israel already has the threat of sanctions hanging over them to cease their Gaza offensive. Beyond moving Israel back to the negotiating table with HAMAS I am not sure dragging old pre-colonial baggage into discussions is very productive.



Last edited by Cornflake on 07 Jul 2024, 4:55 am, edited 1 time in total.: Removed a personal attack

funeralxempire
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06 Jul 2024, 8:30 pm

cyberdad wrote:
If you are going back to the Bronze age then all our ancestors did that type of thing.


Image
You keep posting red herrings son.

cyberdad wrote:
Setting up a thesis that Israel is beholden to all Palestinian demands following Oct 7th based on past history (e.g. Israel did terrible things a long time ago) is an argument built on shaky foundations.


Good thing no one is doing that. Again you prove intellectual honesty is not a trait you possess.

cyberdad wrote:
FE is conveniently ignoring that Israel already has the threat of sanctions hanging over them to cease their Gaza offensive. Beyond moving Israel back to the negotiating table with HAMAS I am not sure dragging old pre-colonial baggage into discussions is very productive.


I'm not ignoring "the threat of sanctions", it's just that with any other regime they'd already be in place.

You can't discuss the current situation in Palestine without discussing how Israeli actions since 1947 have contributed to that outcome. It seems like you think appealing to (some) people's feelings somehow makes the facts irrelevant. Since you can't challenge the facts you seek to exclude them from consideration.

I feel like assuming Jewish members must be unwavering in their support for Israel regardless of Israeli actions is far more antisemitic than any criticisms of Israeli policy I've made. You're assuming Jewish members lack the ability to judge morality for themselves and will just cheerlead for "their team" instead. Not a good look but not unexpected.


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cyberdad
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06 Jul 2024, 8:46 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
You can't discuss the current situation in Palestine without discussing how Israeli actions since 1947 have contributed to that outcome. It seems like you think appealing to (some) people's feelings somehow makes the facts irrelevant. Since you can't challenge the facts you seek to exclude them from consideration.


Yes but history does not help with how Israel should have responded to Oct 7th? You know very well the IDF and Israel could not be conciliatory. I am not aware of a single government in the world that responds to a terror attack by giving in to a terrorist group's demands.



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06 Jul 2024, 8:55 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I feel like assuming Jewish members must be unwavering in their support for Israel regardless of Israeli actions is far more antisemitic than any criticisms of Israeli policy I've made. You're assuming Jewish members lack the ability to judge morality for themselves and will just cheerlead for "their team" instead. Not a good look but not unexpected.


this is likely not true. they are, keeping neutral in these discussions, I am not (and I am not even Jewish). Yes, the death toll of Palestinian civilians should never have happened. But I remain worried at the piling on Israelis following the attack last year. Middle class protestors in your country and mine have unwittingly been drawn into a game being played by terrorists.



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06 Jul 2024, 9:10 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
You can't discuss the current situation in Palestine without discussing how Israeli actions since 1947 have contributed to that outcome. It seems like you think appealing to (some) people's feelings somehow makes the facts irrelevant. Since you can't challenge the facts you seek to exclude them from consideration.


Yes but history does not help with how Israel should have responded to Oct 7th? You know very well the IDF and Israel could not be conciliatory. I am not aware of a single government in the world that responds to a terror attack by giving in to a terrorist group's demands.


They can keep trying to punish the Palestinians for not just accepting being stolen from but that doesn't seem to have worked at all so far.

Instead the various Revisionist Zionist factions within Israeli politics maintain power by doing everything they can to ensure they have an excuse to 'mow the lawn' every few years. That's who creates the circumstances that leads to October 7th but you're unwilling to confront that problem which means you'll never have a solution to that problem.

Instead you'll shrug and accept more Palestinians being murdered and never once think anyone of the Israeli side needs held accountable. That's why nothing you have to offer on this topic will ever be of value.

In any other circumstance you'd be recognized as an enabler for the abuser or even a flying monkey. You allow an abuser to manipulate your sympathies and then you make excuses for the abuser's actions no matter how badly those excuse make the person offering them look.

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
I feel like assuming Jewish members must be unwavering in their support for Israel regardless of Israeli actions is far more antisemitic than any criticisms of Israeli policy I've made. You're assuming Jewish members lack the ability to judge morality for themselves and will just cheerlead for "their team" instead. Not a good look but not unexpected.


this is likely not true. they are, keeping neutral in these discussions


According to you, the guy who's trying to play the hurt feelings card on behalf of unnamed others.

cyberdad wrote:
...I am not (and I am not even Jewish). Yes, the death toll of Palestinian civilians should never have happened. But I remain worried at the piling on Israelis following the attack last year. Middle class protestors in your country and mine have unwittingly been drawn into a game being played by terrorists.


Instead you'd prefer everyone pile on the Palestinians who need to accept that they were stolen from, raped, tortured, imprisoned, etc and that they will never receive justice and in fact will be demonized for asking for justice.

They should just accept their fate is to be punished for the Holocaust despite playing no part in committing that act.


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funeralxempire
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06 Jul 2024, 9:18 pm



Even Jews get slandered as antisemitic by Hasbarists for daring to be critical of Israeli policy.


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06 Jul 2024, 9:22 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Instead the various Revisionist Zionist factions within Israeli politics maintain power by doing everything they can to ensure they have an excuse to 'mow the lawn' every few years. That's who creates the circumstances that leads to October 7th but you're unwilling to confront that problem which means you'll never have a solution to that problem.

Instead you'll shrug and accept more Palestinians being murdered and never once think anyone of the Israeli side needs held accountable. That's why nothing you have to offer on this topic will ever be of value.


In any negotiation, the needs of civilians on both sides need to be considered. Jewish and Palestinian. the sight of Palestinians jumping for joy at the sight of raped Israeli women seems to make me think there is a lot of work to be done to change the views of both sides (not just Israelis).

You are being selective how you interpret history. Whenever Israel demilitarises and leaves Palestinians to manage their own affairs, within a few years Israeli civilians are targetted. Frankly I think it will take enormous effort on both sides to get back to negotiated settlement but is amuses me that you think HAMAS can be trusted after Oct 7th.



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06 Jul 2024, 9:26 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Instead you'd prefer everyone pile on the Palestinians who need to accept that they were stolen from, raped, tortured, imprisoned, etc and that they will never receive justice and in fact will be demonized for asking for justice.

They should just accept their fate is to be punished for the Holocaust despite playing no part in committing that act.


You are conflating two separate issues. Most of the European Jews experienced the holocaust when they arrived in Israel. this relates to their personal needs to find a safe place to live and bring up their children. It has nothing to do with Palestinians being responsible for the holocaust (although the grand Mufti and his Palestinian supporters would have happily collaborated with Hiltler in participating in rounding up Israeli jews).



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06 Jul 2024, 9:27 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Instead the various Revisionist Zionist factions within Israeli politics maintain power by doing everything they can to ensure they have an excuse to 'mow the lawn' every few years. That's who creates the circumstances that leads to October 7th but you're unwilling to confront that problem which means you'll never have a solution to that problem.

Instead you'll shrug and accept more Palestinians being murdered and never once think anyone of the Israeli side needs held accountable. That's why nothing you have to offer on this topic will ever be of value.


In any negotiation, the needs of civilians on both sides need to be considered. Jewish and Palestinian. the sight of Palestinians jumping for joy at the sight of raped Israeli women seems to make me think there is a lot of work to be done to change the views of both sides (not just Israelis).

You are being selective how you interpret history. Whenever Israel demilitarises and leaves Palestinians to manage their own affairs, within a few years Israeli civilians are targetted. Frankly I think it will take enormous effort on both sides to get back to negotiated settlement but is amuses me that you think HAMAS can be trusted after Oct 7th.


You're just repeating narratives from people who wish to excuse genocide CD. You're consistently dishonest when excusing Israeli actions, whether it's because you're inventing your own lies or just repeating Israeli lies.


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funeralxempire
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06 Jul 2024, 9:27 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
Instead you'd prefer everyone pile on the Palestinians who need to accept that they were stolen from, raped, tortured, imprisoned, etc and that they will never receive justice and in fact will be demonized for asking for justice.

They should just accept their fate is to be punished for the Holocaust despite playing no part in committing that act.


You are conflating two separate issues. Most of the European Jews experienced the holocaust when they arrived in Israel. this relates to their personal needs to find a safe place to live and bring up their children. It has nothing to do with Palestinians being responsible for the holocaust (although the grand Mufti and his Palestinian supporters would have happily collaborated with Hiltler in participating in rounding up Israeli jews).


How does that entitle them to steal the Palestinians homeland exactly? :scratch:


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06 Jul 2024, 9:34 pm



Hopefully I haven't already posted this one.


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06 Jul 2024, 9:58 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
How does that entitle them to steal the Palestinians homeland exactly? :scratch:


If you are referring to illegal occupation of Palestinian land agreed to by treaty then "yes" many (not all) of those folk are brainwashed and many (not all) are fanatical zionists.

If you are talking about the other 99% of Israelis then how exactly are they any more culpable for historical Palestinian dispossession than any other civilian living in colonial occupied lands like the country you happily live in?



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06 Jul 2024, 10:06 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
You're just repeating narratives from people who wish to excuse genocide CD. You're consistently dishonest when excusing Israeli actions, whether it's because you're inventing your own lies or just repeating Israeli lies.


My premise is simple. Israel has a right to exist. When Palestinians use that as a starting point then I suspect they will not vote for HAMAS and none of this current conflict would be happening.

Yes I would not be surprised that Israeli governments do have long term goals to encroach and ethnically erase Palestinian culture/people from the State of Israel. However 44% of the Palestinian civilian population have opted for violence (by supporting HAMAS) rather than peaceful protest and calling for sanctions. If you look at history, African Americans eventually went with MLK while India went with Mahatma Gandhi and South Africa went with Mandela and colonial peoples who who used peaceful agitation were/have been more successful in eventually getting what they wanted.



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06 Jul 2024, 10:16 pm

You're just relying on deflection from the root cause CD. As long as you continue to start from the premise that Israel's actions must be justified you'll continue to be an enabler for their genocidal actions.


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06 Jul 2024, 10:18 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
You're just relying on deflection from the root cause CD. As long as you continue to start from the premise that Israel's actions must be justified you'll continue to be an enabler for their genocidal actions.


No, I am asking you to agree, Israel has the right to exist, it's people deserve to be unmolested.