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ASPartOfMe
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06 Jan 2025, 12:07 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Until now we have been concentrating of causation by Israeli actions. The following tweet while not absolving Israel emphasis Palestinian narrative.

You didn't link to the tweet you quoted, but I found it here via Google.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Haviv Rettig Gur is the senior analyst for the Times of Israel and a frequent guest on Zionist podcasts
Quote:
[...]
I have a lot of criticisms of my country. I don’t think this conflict ends until Palestinians receive the fundamental thing they deserve, which is independence from us. But my critiques don’t much matter on the ground as long as the single biggest political faction in Palestine, the same faction that destroyed the peace process and shattered the Israeli left in waves of bloody bombings, continues to champion the literal destruction of my people.

Polls tell us that 90% of ordinary Israelis genuinely and earnestly believe that the fundamental Palestinian aspiration is to exterminate them They believe it because these same ideological factions in Palestine tell them this consistently and routinely.

It’s hard to convey how devastating that simple fact is to the Palestinian cause, how high it drives the bar for successfully pressuring Israelis to change policies or behaviors.

There is no pressure the world can bring to bear on the Israelis, not even literal war, that will be higher than the countervailing pressure of this persistent promise by major Palestinian factions to turn every withdrawal into rivers of blood, up to and including the destruction of Israel.

It doesn’t matter if you think the Palestinians can’t actually destroy the Israelis. What matters for the Palestinian future, more than all the love of all the world, is that Israelis believe it.

Until that changes, no sanctions or ostracism or hatred or violence against synagogues or the construction of vast ideological narratives about Jewish perfidy will move the needle for Palestinians.

When Palestinian ideologues realize and respond to that straightforward strategic reality, the needle will finally move.
bolding=mine:

That 90 percent of Israelis believe that all Palestinians want to do is exterminate them certainly puts Israeli statements and actions in context.

And, unfortunately, it is probably a self-fulfilling prophecy. Given the Israeli slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza, it would be no surprise if many Palestinians were to conclude that the only solution, for them, would be to slaughter Israeli Jews, if only the Palestinians, rather than the Israelis, were the ones with the power to do so and get away with it.

I wish I knew how to break everyone out of this cycle of genocidal hatred. Somehow. there needs to be some way of humanizing both sides to each other while, somehow, making some sort of real progress toward justice and equality.

In any case, the Israelis are the ones in a position of greater power, so the Israelis are the main ones who will need to be pressured to make it happen.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
It also explains why Israel is bombing Syria when the new regime is saying everyday they want peace. It makes me wonder if there is anything the Palestinians can do to change Israeli opinion.

Probably not anything the Palestinians can do on their own. My guess is that what's needed, at this point, is more inter-religious dialogue involving Jews, Muslims, and Christians, both in Israel/Palestine and here in the U.S.A.

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Putting my pessimism aside at some point Israeli Jews have stop feeling the need to constantly prove they are not the victims anymore and recognize they have done terrible things also.

This has nothing to with Palestinian intentions but their own mental health.

If you have almost two hours to spare Haviv Rettig Gur’s college lecture. He goes back to the 1800s

Very interesting.

Looks like Israel and the preceding Zionist movement has had a long series of different imperial sponsors, including the U.K. (intermittently), Russia (briefly, in the late 1800's), the Soviet Union (briefly, in 1948), the French (in the 1950's and 1960's), and then the U.S.A. (ever since 1970-ish).


You have agreed with an assertion I have made a number of times that both sides have a number of legitimate reasons to expect the other side to slaughter them if they had the ability to do so. The context of these are the cycle of abuse and violence since the zionist project was introduced to Palestine.

Up until a certain point the “Arab-Israeli conflict” as it was called was seen as a religious conflict between Jews and Muslims. For a number of years now the religious aspect especially the Muslim part at least here in the states has been almost completely deemphasized in favor of nationalism and oppressor and oppressed races.

Obviously in a conflict between Jewish and Palestinian nationalism nationalism can not be deemphasized in any way. And since Zionism is a Jewish national project expectations by Palestinians that they are going to be slaughtered by Jews can not be completely ignored. On the other hand Palestinian Nationalism is not defined as the desire to create an Islamic state. And in recent years there has been an acknowledgment that not all Israelis are Jews and not all Palestinians are Muslim. According to the Israeli Census Bureau 73 percent of Israeli are Jewish while nearly 98 percent of Palestinians are Muslims.

During the current wave of anti-zionist protests there have been a number of reports of demonstrators chanting “Go back to Europe” and “Go back to Poland”. Antisemitism as a factor behind these chants especially the first one can be dismissed because Zionism literally came from Europe or saying Europeans as another way of saying white oppressor.

I have another theory as to why there might be more to that chant then the factors listed above and more then Zionist actions that factored in the violent Palestinian resistance that started in the 1920s. That factor is the Zionist project was and is viewed by Muslims as the next crusade coming out of Europe.

Even among most ardent anti zionists Palestinian violence is generally seen as enforcing existing paranoia based on repeated persecution of diaspora Jews. So why is a possible motive that pre dates the zionist project mostly ignored at least here in America? I have a couple of related guesses. Here anti zionism has mostly come out of progressive politics. For the identity left as mentioned European settler colonialist oppression fits nicely into the white oppressor narrative. For Democratic Socialists settler colonist oppression is a form into Capitalist oppression. For anti Fascists Israel as Nazis is obvious. And people especially progressives do not want be seen as Islamophobic. Going where I just went by can be seen as conflating Muslims and paranoia.

Editors Notes:
I have a hard time not seeing the “Go back to Poland” chant as not referencing Auschwitz.

In the last paragraph I divided American progressive politics into three sub categories that are overly broad and does not take into account most progressives fall at least partially in multiple sub categories. Sub categories of progressive politics are way beyond the scope of this post.


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Mona Pereth
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06 Jan 2025, 12:51 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
You have agreed with an assertion I have made a number of times that both sides have a number of legitimate reasons to expect the other side to slaughter them if they had the ability to do so. The context of these are the cycle of abuse and violence since the zionist project was introduced to Palestine.

Up until a certain point the “Arab-Israeli conflict” as it was called was seen as a religious conflict between Jews and Muslims. For a number of years now the religious aspect especially the Muslim part at least here in the states has been almost completely deemphasized in favor of nationalism and oppressor and oppressed races.

I don't remember it being described as a religious conflict back in the 1960's and 1970's. Back then, I remember it being described as Israel vs. "the Arabs," primarily the surrounding Arab states (especially Egypt and Syria) rather than the Palestinians themselves. Occasionally we also heard about "Palestinian" (as well as "Arab") terrorist groups.

I don't remember hearing much about Islamism until after the Iranian revolution in 1979. After that, we began to hear more and more about "jihadists," some of whom were portrayed in Western media as good guys (in the Soviet–Afghan War of 1979 to 1989) and others as bad guys (various militant groups in the Middle East, including Hezbollah and Hamas).

Then, after 9/11/2001, the U.S.A. was gripped by a huge wave of anti-Muslim panic, of which various right wing Zionists fanned the flames as a way to try to whip up sympathy for Israel.


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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 06 Jan 2025, 1:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.

funeralxempire
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06 Jan 2025, 12:59 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Editors Notes:
I have a hard time not seeing the “Go back to Poland” chant as not referencing Auschwitz.


Is it a reference to Auschwitz or merely an assumption their home is in Eastern Europe?

To my ears it doesn't sound much different from telling white Americans to go back to Europe (or a specific European nation), but YMMV.


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ASPartOfMe
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06 Jan 2025, 1:40 pm

Mona Pereth wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
You have agreed with an assertion I have made a number of times that both sides have a number of legitimate reasons to expect the other side to slaughter them if they had the ability to do so. The context of these are the cycle of abuse and violence since the zionist project was introduced to Palestine.

Up until a certain point the “Arab-Israeli conflict” as it was called was seen as a religious conflict between Jews and Muslims. For a number of years now the religious aspect especially the Muslim part at least here in the states has been almost completely deemphasized in favor of nationalism and oppressor and oppressed races.

I don't remember it being described as a religious conflict back in the 1960's and 1970's. Back then, I remember it being described as Israel vs. "the Arabs," primarily the surrounding Arab states (especially Egypt and Syria) rather than the Palestinians themselves. Occasionally we also heard about "Palestinian" (as well as "Arab") terrorist groups.

I don't remember hearing much about Islamism until after the Iranian revolution in 1979. After that, we began to hear more and more about "jihadists," some of whom were portrayed in Western media as good guys (in the Soviet–Afghan War of 1979 to 1989) and others as bad guys (various militant groups in the Middle East, including Hezbollah and Hamas).

Then, after 9/11/2001, the U.S.A. was gripped by a huge wave of anti-Muslim panic, of which various right wing Zionists fanned the flames as a way to try to whip up sympathy for Israel.


You are correct that back in the 60s and 70s the only reference to Palestinians was in relation to terrorism. In the Jewish community the cause of the conflict was seen as hatred of Jews because they were Muslim. Louis Farrakhan and to a somewhat extent Malcolm X made it easier for Jews to conflate Muslims with antisemites. Americans have always conflated Arabs with Muslims so saying Arab-Israeli conflict was a synonym for saying Jewish-Muslim conflict.

Fear of specifically Islamic terrorism and Muslims became mainstream well before 9/11 due to several factors. 1. As you said The Iran hostage crises. A whole bunch of hate crimes followed that. 2. With the fall of the Soviet Union the Neo conservative movement switched their attention from communism to a “Clash of Civilizations” between the Judeo-Christian world and Islam. 3. Arrest of Islamic terrorists in the first World Trade Center Bombing. It was widely assumed at first that the 1995 Oklahoma City Bombing was the done by Muslims.


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