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Mc_Jeff
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24 Nov 2007, 12:36 am

I'm also an agnostic.

However, I believe it's important to understand religions rather than to stereotype them.



monty
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24 Nov 2007, 1:17 am

Mc_Jeff wrote:
Averick wrote:
God doesn't exist like Christians believe. He is not some white-bearded man sitting on a throne of gold up in a cloudy place.


That's not what most Christians say.

That's what the Christian-hating Athiests and Black Supremacists say when trying to stereotype mainstream Christians.
.


Who are these Christian-hating Black supremacists of which you speak?? Are we talking about a white man with a beard, or a man with a white beard? Cause even Morgan Freeman is a white-bearded man, and he's black. He's not a black-supremacist, but he did play God in the Clouds in a movie or two. Frankly, I think you are just making stuff up about the Supremacists.



Mc_Jeff
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24 Nov 2007, 11:22 pm

They're called the Nation of Islam. They're lead by a guy named Louis Farrakhan (maybe misspelled). They believe that the white race is a sub-human race created by black scientists.

Sorry, bud, just because you have to make up things ass over teakettle to justify your anti-Israel beliefs doesn't mean other people have to make stuff up to prove their points.



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25 Nov 2007, 2:50 am

Mc_Jeff wrote:
They're called the Nation of Islam. They're lead by a guy named Louis Farrakhan (maybe misspelled). They believe that the white race is a sub-human race created by black


The revolution will not be televised.....



monty
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25 Nov 2007, 11:43 am

Mc_Jeff wrote:
They're called the Nation of Islam. They're lead by a guy named Louis Farrakhan (maybe misspelled). They believe that the white race is a sub-human race created by black scientists.

Sorry, bud, just because you have to make up things ass over teakettle to justify your anti-Israel beliefs doesn't mean other people have to make stuff up to prove their points.


Yeah, I know about the nation of Islam. But they are a small fringe group with little influence. They are on par with that Reverend Phelps of the some fringe 'Baptist' church that pickets military funerals and believes that the US deaths are due to US policy on gays. It only proves that a handful of people will believe anything.

And for the record, can you demonstrate that I am anti-Israel? I am not. While I am skeptical of many religions doctrines, I have no problem with people of good will who wish to practice their religion. I have respect for many of the traditions in Judaism, just as I have respect for many traditions in other religions. I am not anti-Israel, although I might be critical of some Likud party policies, or zealot Jews that do things like assassinate Israeli Prime Ministers.



Witt
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26 Nov 2007, 9:27 am

elvenmage wrote:
Can you give me some proof of it's existence?

This isn't meant as a trick question or anything, it's just that i'd like to know why people actually beleive in a god.

Thanks. 8)



Can you give me some proof of your's existence?

This isn't meant as a trick question or anything, it's just that I'd like to know why actually people believe in you.
I personally doubt that you exist.Prove to me that you is really you,and not something else.


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Myles17
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01 Dec 2007, 11:35 pm

not all Islamic people are crazy. you make it sound like all Islamic people are radical islamic jihad who strap themselves up with bombs and commit jihad(fighting all who oppose islam and any evil). (which is kind of scary ree ree ree) ( thats a pillar of islam I promise) anyways proof that God exists:

Who made God? misses the point. The God of Christianity is the Creator and sustainer of all ELSE that exists. No one created Him, which is probably why people say its beyond human comprehension, which frankly it is.

Attributes of The God of The Bible (Christianity) ( i dont know what else has a book called The Bible, but who knows now days lol)

God is Omnipotent meaning all powerful. which means what it says (all powerful)
He cannot do nonsensical things like make square circles or married bachelors.
He can't sin, lie, cease to exist because it goes against his perfection. God is PERFECT, he never fails.

God is Omniscent meaning he knows everything.
He knows the past, present, and the future.

God is Disembodied meaning Spirit. He is aware of everything and sustains everything, and he is Nowhere meaning he Transcends time and space.

God cannot not exist

The Existence of God

Some argue that Christians make up God, and that we have invented him in our minds.

The God of the Bible's existence is not dependent upon Christians because our belief in him does not make him real, he exists independently of our minds. and here's why:

As Christians we believe its true that we can't observe God in his fullness or fully understand him, just partially which is why we could not have possibly invented Him, because anything a person invents they understand because they have invented it. (unless they get eilzheimers or however you spell it...har har har) .. ok back to what i was saying...

Here are some arguments for God's existence which is what you want so listen up:

Transcendental Argument: Here are arguments from the atheistic/naturalsitc worldview vs. Theistic Chriastin worldview

Athiestic/naturalistic:
- Only physical things exist - no soul, mind, or morality
- Human beings are the result of blind chance( no creator) and evolution

Theistic Christian Worldview:- Phsical and non-physical things exist - morality, minds, souls, and numbers 1, 2 ,3 ,4( you may say but thats a number you just typed, no thats not a physical number, its the result of the computer making a shape( i dont know the technicality of it), just like writing , its lead or ink not a physical number)
- While physical things change, non-physical things do not- like logic and morals, etc

Heres a question for Athiests/Naturalists

If your mind is a result of blind chance(no creator), how can you trust your own mind for the truth?

If you were going to buy a computer and you knew it had software downloaded at random, would you buy that computer? No.. because it wouldnt give you true information.(the info could be made by a liar or i dont know it could have norton antivius on there or some cheap program that doesnt do its job) no offense to norton heh..heh...Your mind according to the naturalistic worldview is not only physical, but the result of chance and survival of the fittest...it may be that we've survived as the result of us not knoing about the world. Maybe our minds lie to us and help us survive. How do you know that you know anything? In this worldview, you have no assurance of even knowlege itself.(knowlege requires a non-physical mind, because..well you know knowlege is not physical).

The last argument under the Transcendental category is: Evil only makes sense if there is an objective good. Evil is something thats set apart from good. The God of The bible or Christianity is good.

2nd Argument Kalam Cosmological Argument:
No begining vs. beginning-Big Bang Theory: something came from nothing (erm come again)
-Second Law of Thermodynamics: Universe is moving toward heat death
-Actual Infinite: unlimited set(the past is infinite because the beginning is undefined and not known)
its logically impossible, because if the past were infinite, i could not be here today typing on this computer, because my mother wouldnt have been here and etc.

*Uncause vs. cause
-if the universe were uncaused, then it would have always existed, because only caused things have beginnings. Like the beginning of SuperBowl it is caused and starts on a specific date.

*Conceptually Possilbe vs. Logically Impossible
Miracles are both conceptually and logically possible. ex:
1. Virgin Birth
2. Prior to the 1900s flying in an airplane

Nonsense is neither conceptually nor logically possible like an impersonal uncaused earth with no beginning.

Theres proof for ya. I'd like to say to any athiest or naturalist who reads this, I have tried to accurately describe every one of the viewpoints of your worldviews in my comparisons. If you feel like i have got a certain one wrong please tell me so I can change my arguement to be fair.

You may ask the question (how do you know these things ?) Its in the Bible, which was written through people used by God to write it. Then you may say well if humans are sinful and imperfect how can we trust the validity of the Bible if its written by God through man. You're forgetting that the God of Christianity is perfect and sustains what He has created, and will not fail in anything He does. To let God Fail would limit His omnipotence and perfection. You may ask well how do you know that the Bible didnt get goofed over throughout history? same answer God is IN CONTROL.



jfrmeister
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02 Dec 2007, 12:03 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
skafather84 wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Everything has to have a beginning



so who created god, then? your model falls apart from the first point.


Maybe He's too big for your mind to grasp?


Al things in the universe show progression from simple to more complex. the notion of divine creation defies this principle. God must be incredibly complex, therefore where did this complexity come from? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?


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Myles17
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02 Dec 2007, 12:06 am

read my post above it explains it. please READ it ALL and remember we are discussing Christianity



jfrmeister
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02 Dec 2007, 12:19 am

Myles17 wrote:
read my post above it explains it. please READ it ALL and remember we are discussing Christianity


Yet none of this explains the christian god, merely A god.

BTW, these are all old arguments that have already been debunked. I don't feel like refuting them for the umpteen billionth time.


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Myles17
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02 Dec 2007, 12:20 am

who debunked them and when? please tell me why my arguments are incorrect.



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08 Dec 2007, 10:39 am

Witt wrote:
elvenmage wrote:
Can you give me some proof of it's existence?

This isn't meant as a trick question or anything, it's just that i'd like to know why people actually beleive in a god.

Thanks. 8)



Can you give me some proof of your's existence?

This isn't meant as a trick question or anything, it's just that I'd like to know why actually people believe in you.
I personally doubt that you exist.Prove to me that you is really you,and not something else.


Personally I believe that the Universe was created a couple of years ago, and since nobody was there back then nobody can say otherwise. You know it's crazy to think that people actually use facts day to day, why don't they just believe everything people feed them?

Did I mention my respect for Manbearpigs?


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08 Dec 2007, 11:18 am

Science doesn't have all the answers, but at least it's mature enough to admit that it doesn't know instead of fabricating mythological buffers.



manzanita
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08 Dec 2007, 11:25 am

elvenmage wrote:
Can you give me some proof of it's existence?

This isn't meant as a trick question or anything, it's just that i'd like to know why people actually beleive in a god.

Thanks. 8)

It must be based on faith, because without faith, it all comes toppling down.

This quote accurately sums up my stance on the matter:

Robert Flint wrote:
"If a man has failed to find any good reason for believing that there is a God, it is perfectly natural and rational that he should not believe that there is a God; and if so, he is an atheist... if he goes farther, and, after an investigation into the nature and reach of human knowledge, ending in the conclusion that the existence of God is incapable of proof, cease to believe in it on the ground that he cannot know it to be true, he is an agnostic and also an atheist - an agnostic-atheist - an atheist because an agnostic... while, then, it is erroneous to identify agnosticism and atheism, it is equally erroneous so to separate them as if the one were exclusive of the other..."



jfrmeister
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08 Dec 2007, 1:51 pm

Mc_Jeff wrote:
They're called the Nation of Islam. They're lead by a guy named Louis Farrakhan (maybe misspelled). They believe that the white race is a sub-human race created by black scientists.

Sorry, bud, just because you have to make up things ass over teakettle to justify your anti-Israel beliefs doesn't mean other people have to make stuff up to prove their points.


The funny thing to note about NOI is that most Muslim Clerics consider them heretics.


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monty
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08 Dec 2007, 3:07 pm

jfrmeister wrote:
Mc_Jeff wrote:
They're called the Nation of Islam. They're lead by a guy named Louis Farrakhan (maybe misspelled). They believe that the white race is a sub-human race created by black scientists.

Sorry, bud, just because you have to make up things ass over teakettle to justify your anti-Israel beliefs doesn't mean other people have to make stuff up to prove their points.


The funny thing to note about NOI is that most Muslim Clerics consider them heretics.


Of course, because the Koran teaches that race is not important and that all humans are equal before God. The 'Nation of Islam' is about as Islamic as the KKK is Christian.