View on Genesis 1:1-2:3

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I can't believe the crap theists dispense sometimes....

Hebrew is member of the Afro-Asiatic language groop that shares common ancestery with Ammonite, Moabite, and Edomite. It's also related to Phoencian. All these languages descended from an earlier Canaanite language.



Saying that nothing pre-dated the Jews is as stupid as that ret*d black chick on the TV show "The View" who said that the world was flat and that there was nothing before Chistianity.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmuTef5wVho&feature=related[/youtube]

Last edited by jfrmeister on 16 Dec 2007, 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It doesn't seem that it says in that article that God created everything in hebrew, there are people who believe to be the first language or God's language, because of ancient Judaism and the writings of the Thora and the OT, but historically, that wasn't the first language spoken by man, even some christians, probably not all believe the same on this, refute that idea believing that before the tower of babel story, there was no hebrew.

My understanding is that the Sanskrit is the primary sound of creation:

"In the beginning was the word ... "

"Aum, the primal sound of creation, upholding manifestation in the eternal moment of existence ..."

There are many beliefs about the original language, but I feel that the "tower of Babel" allegory suggets that in the "confusion of tongues" the original language would cease to be a spoken language, which lets out Hebrew or any other "spoken" language IMHO (Sanskrit survives only as a "scholarly" language in which some of the very oldest of all human scriptural writings have been found, AFAIK).

I agree, all the rest of the above is BS. If Hebrew were the founding language of the earth an the buildiong block of life, then why is it only the Jews speak it? And why is it that most Christians say that the Jews are wrong because they don't accept Christ as their saviour, and are thus damned? It really astounds me how some people can ignore thousands of years of history just to perpetuate a myth that some sect created roughly 6000 years ago just to get themselves through the day. And while we are at it, do the Catholics, Hindus, Muslims, Protestants etc really give a stuff about what was written in a language that they could not understand? English is the most widely spoken language in the western world, and Mandarin the most widely spoken in the east. Hebrew was only ever spoken by the Jews, and most of them are far outnumbered by, for example, even the muslims. Sure, the OT and the NT were written in code, but even the original translation TO Hebrew left a lot out. And then with subsequent translations, we ended up with what we have today. Revelation was written as an account of the persecution the Xians felt at the hand of Nero, and John had to code it otherwise he would have suffered the same fate as some of the other apostles. When you really get down to it, the bible or even the Torah or whatever were never meant to be taken as literal as they have been, and they were only meant to be a group of legends passed down to enlighten believers in that particular deity.

[quote="jfrmeister"l[/quote]

The Hebrew letters are language, a counting system, spiritual symbols - each representating one element of the Periodic Table. It takes nothing from other languages but all languages are derived from IT. Hebrew descended only from Aramaic which is STILL used in the esoteric teachings which comes as NO surprise being how they are derived from the SAME place where the Patriarch Abraham hailed from - Chaldeans - Ur.




I am saying that the Noahide Laws - predated the PEOPLEHOOD known as the Jews by at least 1,000 years.

Why do you think they've been trying their darndest to kill off the Jews? To keep the light from returning as it once was in Eden. Because that would signal their own demise - and we all know how painful that is becoming for them with the multitudes of xtians leaving churches, churches closing, xtianity basically being outed as the farce it has always been. G-d, Creator said - Have no other gods before Me. That includes men on crosses. There is only one G-d and He made everything - all things - and He has no shape or limitation and most importantly He had no son. You see, you've been lied to. the Jews were always the good guys, the xtians demonized them to distract the world from their crimes. So much bloodshed, so much violence to keep the Truth from emerging.

Till now.

The allegory of the Tower of Babel takes on multi meanings. I think we're witnessing precisely what it means in this day and age - right here and now with the advent of the internet. So many theories, so many mindframes, so many ideas, concepts, *truths* and realities that get exchanged back and forth, up down in all directions. But ultimately we're getting near that day when And the LORD shall be King over all the earth; in that day shall the LORD be One, and His name one. Zecharia 14:9. i.e. people will finally see, understand and get ~IT~ that there has always been 1 Creator - and all the false teachings have been just that, all idols (towers) will fall, all illusions smashed. We will return to Point Zero - to One. From where we started out in the Beginning. And the truth will be lived by all.

To get a realy comprehensive answer to your question at eye level - the best bet would have it explained by a rabbi who knows exactly the right phrasing to use - I would just confuse the issue with kabbalistic jargon. See http://www.asknoah.com or http://www.askmoses.com . What appears to be a simple question, really isn't that simple, suffice to say - the 10 utterances through which the Creator created correspond each to a Hebrew letter - number, sphere - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephirot

But do check out askmoses. You won't be dissapointed.

The early church writers wrote about the six days of creation. Since the apostles preached orally to the church and most of what they said wasn't written down, I'll assume that the early church knows best on this matter. Here's what they wrote:

All their writings reference Psalms 90:4, also quoted in 2 Peter 3:1-9 (NIV). Peter wrote, "First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised?" ... But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

From early church writings:

"The Sabbath is mentioned at the beginning of the creation [thus]: “And God made in six days the works of His hands, and made an end on the seventh day, and rested on it, and sanctified it.” Attend, my children, to the meaning of this expression, “He finished in six days.” This implieth that the Lord will finish all things in six thousand years, for a day is with Him a thousand years. And He Himself testifieth, saying, “Behold, to-day will be as a thousand years.” Therefore, my children, in six days, that is, in six thousand years, all things will be finished. (Barnabas Ch. 15)"

"For in as many days as this world was made, in so many thousand years shall it be concluded. And for this reason the Scripture says: “Thus the heaven and the earth were finished, and all their adornment. And God brought to a conclusion upon the sixth day the works that He had made; and God rested upon the seventh day from all His works.” This is an
account of the things formerly created, as also it is a prophecy of what is to come. For the day of the Lord is as a thousand years; and in six days created things were completed: it is evident, therefore, that they will come to an end at the sixth thousand year. (Irenaeus, Book 5, Ch. 28)"

“This has pleased Christ, that the dead should rise again, yea, with their bodies; and those, too, whom in this world the fire has burned, when six thousand years are completed, and the world has come to an end. (Commodianus, Christian Discipline, Ch. 80)”

“Therefore, since all the works of God were completed in six days, the world must continue in its present state through six ages, that is, six thousand years. For the great day of God is limited by a circle of a thousand years, as the prophet shows, who says “In Thy sight, O Lord, a thousand years are as one day.” And as God labored during those six days in creating such great works, so His religion and truth must labor during these six thousand years, while wickedness prevails and bears rule. And again, since God, having finished His works, rested the seventh day and blessed it, at the end of the six thousandth year all wickedness must be abolished from the earth, and righteousness reign for a thousand years; and there must be tranquillity and rest from the labors which the world now has long endured. (Lactantius, Divine Institutes, Book 7: Of a Happy Life, Ch. 14)”

Some quotes relevant to the subject (note: God's Word was revealed here in the Arabic language as it was revealed in other languages before, so the following is an earnest approximation of the full meaning):

{Allah, it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days. Then He rose over the Throne (in a manner befitting His Majesty). You (mankind) have none besides Him as a protector or an intercessor. Will you not then remember?

He arranges (every) affair from the heavens to the earth, then it will go up to Him, in one Day, the space of which is a thousand years of your reckoning.} [32:4-5]

{Verily! A day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you reckon.}[22:47]

{The angels and the Spirit (the Angel Gabriel) ascend to Him in a Day the measure of which is fifty thousand years.} [70: 4]

The explanation for the Bible is that much of it was based in true Revelation, but it has been changed (and therefore corrupted) at the hands of men. There is much truth therein, but falsehood is weaved throughout.

The Final Revelation of God to all mankind is the Qur'an, the revelation of which was chronicled 1400 years ago and preserved by the memorization and daily revision of a veritable multitude of trustworthy witnesses. There are full biographies of each of these individuals, recorded testimony of those who lived with and learned from them, and a rigorous science for weeding out liars and the forgetful.

The Qur'an is also known as al-Furqan—it distinguishes between Truth and falsehood—the Criterion for judging what in the Torah and the Gospels is authentic and what is not.

If man corrupted the Bible, then what makes you think man hasn't corrupted the Qur'an also?

why would god need a final revelation? wouldnt he get it right the first time around?

Good question, another good question is, what makes the Bible being the "true Revelation" and not the Qu'ran? although the 'Torah' is also adopted by Islam.

In reverse order,

1. The basic Message has been the same ("right") since Adam (peace be upon him), but the Law has varied in response to human action. (The basic Message being that Allah (God) is One and that our purpose and test in this life is to worship Him in the way He has told us to). Too many Jews (not all of them of course, in their time, Jews were Muslim) played around with the Scripture they were entrusted with and killed prophets sent to remind them when they tried to change It, such that things would be forbidden to them that weren't forbidden before (changes in Law).

Allah tells us in the Qur'an that Jesus (peace be upon him) said, {And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord.}[3: 50]

2. Prophets and messengers were sent to every people on the face of the earth, not just the Jews. The Final Message (the Qur'an) was to unify not the Message (which never changed), but the Law, for all of humanity, until the end of time, however long that might be. Interestingly enough, the Message spread quickly--to most of the known world over the span of just a few generations. Although swords were involved, it is incorrect to simplify the issue and claim that Islam was "spread by the sword" as people like to say, implying that conversion was by force. Richard Bulliet's work, Conversion to Islam (1979), is interesting in this respect and should be enough to debunk that myth.



He tries to all the time, but the miracle of the Qur'an is that the Words remain. People try to mess with interpretation left and right (which keeps the scholars busy in refutation), but they can't change the Words themselves. There are too many people who have memorized the Book by heart; the text was never just on paper. The Book is recited daily in the formal prayers, generally monthly on an informal basis, yearly in congregation during the month of Ramadan and those who learn it must have qualified teachers and perfect the art of pronunciation. Muslims constantly correct even the most miniscule of errors. The detailed history of the Revelation and the compilation of the written text as well as the rigorous academic disciplines surrounding it are quite amazing, especially considering how old it is. Even orientalists who reject Its Message have attested to this fact.

Since the question was "what makes YOU think," i'll just add that the few objections orientalists came up with to attack the authenticity of the Qur'an, I found to be either insignificant, distorted or hogwash. I personally reached a point in my investigations where my logic was satisfied and I could make the leap of faith. Logic is fine and necessary, but even the neatest of logical arguments generally leaves me wondering more about what hasn't been said, which is what left me cold with philosophy, intriguing as it may be. Human logic is as limited as human knowledge, so it's nothing I could ever place my trust in fully.

That said, I find this forum fascinating in that it brings back ideas, doubts and modes of thought that I kind of left hanging when I became a Muslim. Now that it's been a while, I'm no longer insecure in my faith, so I feel ready to engage those issues (perhaps, in listening, rather than speaking mode though; I'm not the argumentative type)... and if I decide to contribute to the discussion, well, at least I won't sound any crazier than most people here. Dogma is dogma; you either believe it or you don't.

spectacular move! you can level up now

[quote] Why interpret it to death to make it say something it doesn't?[quote]

Because Genesis 2 contradicts Genesis 1. If you claim to accept the Bible as true you'll have to make at least one of these passages say something it doesn't.