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Jury Duty is slavery!

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ruveyn
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16 Nov 2010, 7:09 pm

LKL wrote:
being a citizen is a responsibility as well as a right.


For most, being a citizen is an accident. One is usually a citizen of the country in which one is born.

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LKL
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17 Nov 2010, 2:38 am

regardless of the country of birth, citizens of a country have both rights and responsibilities while in that country that visitors to it do not have.



zer0netgain
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17 Nov 2010, 8:40 am

ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:
being a citizen is a responsibility as well as a right.


For most, being a citizen is an accident. One is usually a citizen of the country in which one is born.

ruveyn


Not so. Being summoned to vote is based on being a registered voter. The right to vote for an American citizen is an absolute. To obligate one to serve on a jury when called because they are registered to vote is to tie conditions to an absolute right.



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17 Nov 2010, 8:59 am

zer0netgain wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
LKL wrote:
being a citizen is a responsibility as well as a right.


For most, being a citizen is an accident. One is usually a citizen of the country in which one is born.

ruveyn


Not so. Being summoned to vote is based on being a registered voter. The right to vote for an American citizen is an absolute. To obligate one to serve on a jury when called because they are registered to vote is to tie conditions to an absolute right.


You seem to be saying that citizenship has no obligations.



ruveyn
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17 Nov 2010, 9:44 am

Sand wrote:

You seem to be saying that citizenship has no obligations.


Paying taxes is the obligation. Involuntary servitude is unconstitutional these days. Being compelled to Jury Duty or being drafted into the Military is involuntary servitude. Paying taxes is not. If one does not wish to pay taxes he simply need not own any property or have an income. One cannot draw blood from a stone.

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17 Nov 2010, 9:46 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

You seem to be saying that citizenship has no obligations.


Paying taxes is the obligation. Involuntary servitude is unconstitutional these days. Being compelled to Jury Duty or being drafted into the Military is involuntary servitude. Paying taxes is not. If one does not wish to pay taxes he simply need not own any property or have an income. One cannot draw blood from a stone.

ruveyn


And how does a jury system exist without juries?



ruveyn
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17 Nov 2010, 9:49 am

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

You seem to be saying that citizenship has no obligations.


Paying taxes is the obligation. Involuntary servitude is unconstitutional these days. Being compelled to Jury Duty or being drafted into the Military is involuntary servitude. Paying taxes is not. If one does not wish to pay taxes he simply need not own any property or have an income. One cannot draw blood from a stone.

ruveyn


And how does a jury system exist without juries?


A very good argument for voluntary jury service. We have voluntary military service, why not voluntary jury service. Our police forces are also voluntary. We have no shortage of police. All the donuts one can scoff down and all the bribes and graft one can get.

ruveyn



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17 Nov 2010, 10:36 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

You seem to be saying that citizenship has no obligations.


Paying taxes is the obligation. Involuntary servitude is unconstitutional these days. Being compelled to Jury Duty or being drafted into the Military is involuntary servitude. Paying taxes is not. If one does not wish to pay taxes he simply need not own any property or have an income. One cannot draw blood from a stone.

ruveyn


And how does a jury system exist without juries?


A very good argument for voluntary jury service. We have voluntary military service, why not voluntary jury service. Our police forces are also voluntary. We have no shortage of police. All the donuts one can scoff down and all the bribes and graft one can get.

ruveyn


And if not enough people volunteer what do you do? Very few people want to spend their time on juries.



ruveyn
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17 Nov 2010, 11:54 am

Sand wrote:

And if not enough people volunteer what do you do? Very few people want to spend their time on juries.


Pay them, just like the police and the army is paid.

Or forgive some of their taxes if they volunteer.

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17 Nov 2010, 1:12 pm

Once you create a professional class of jurors, you are simply substituting one agent of the state for twelve.

The true merit of jurors as triers of fact is that they are not beholden to the government of the day for their appointment or for their tenure. As soon as jurors become paid a living wage, they become answerable to their employer.


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17 Nov 2010, 1:28 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Once you create a professional class of jurors, you are simply substituting one agent of the state for twelve.

The true merit of jurors as triers of fact is that they are not beholden to the government of the day for their appointment or for their tenure. As soon as jurors become paid a living wage, they become answerable to their employer.


That is almost the case now.

The voir dire process enables lawyers to pick and choose who judges a case. In criminal matters, many judges impress on the jury that they must decide the case based on the evidence and parameters presented...often denying the jury instruction telling them about the inherent power of "jury nullification" (the ability to refuse to convict because they find the nature of the law or the nature of the case offensive). The power of jury nullification is the ultimate check on the judicial system. The state can make anything a crime but the "peers" who judge you can refuse to convict.



ruveyn
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17 Nov 2010, 2:25 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Once you create a professional class of jurors, you are simply substituting one agent of the state for twelve.

.


You would rather enslave them than pay them? Then make jury service entirely voluntary without pay.

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17 Nov 2010, 2:57 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Once you create a professional class of jurors, you are simply substituting one agent of the state for twelve.

The true merit of jurors as triers of fact is that they are not beholden to the government of the day for their appointment or for their tenure. As soon as jurors become paid a living wage, they become answerable to their employer.

You wouldn't have to create a "professional class". You could just pay them their normal wage, or reimburse their employers to keep paying them. I think enough people would be willing to serve on juries under those conditions, especially if they had to show up at the court house to opt out.



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17 Nov 2010, 6:48 pm

psychohist wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
Once you create a professional class of jurors, you are simply substituting one agent of the state for twelve.

The true merit of jurors as triers of fact is that they are not beholden to the government of the day for their appointment or for their tenure. As soon as jurors become paid a living wage, they become answerable to their employer.

You wouldn't have to create a "professional class". You could just pay them their normal wage, or reimburse their employers to keep paying them. I think enough people would be willing to serve on juries under those conditions, especially if they had to show up at the court house to opt out.


You cannot bribe people to be honest. Just look at politicians who live by bribery. They are the most dishonest people on the planet aside from bankers. The concept that citizens are affronted by being requested to help run a legal system that, at least in theory, provides equal justice for all, by being asked to donate a bit of their time, is one of the most horrendously contemptuous views of humanity going the rounds worthy only of a totally selfish unsocial maniac like ruveyn.



ruveyn
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17 Nov 2010, 7:10 pm

Sand wrote:

You seem to be saying that citizenship has no obligations.


The obligation is to pay taxes due under the law.

ruveyn



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17 Nov 2010, 7:16 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

You seem to be saying that citizenship has no obligations.


The obligation is to pay taxes due under the law.

ruveyn


Your total concern for money and total unconcern for civil interaction is obvious.